What am I doing?

[Carl Hibbard]

Have a few pages of this thread disappeared, or is it just me?

Jack has had a tidyup and split some into a separate "Standards at Tournaments" in the General Chat section - we felt it was disrupting this more of a "CJ" thread...

[Roger de Coverly]

Have a few pages of this thread disappeared, or is it just me?

The digression about lack of moral fibre - players wearing T-shirts - has been moved into a topic on its own.

[Adam Raoof]

Interesting post, Alan! Where is my name?

I take your point about the relationship of the ECF to the EC forum, and I will think about a proposal to re-establish a link. If you have some ideas about where that link should go, and what form it should take, feel free to email me!

Best wishes

Adam

Alan Ruffle Post subject: PlanningPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:21 am



Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:52 am
Posts: 32 Dear All

There is much debate about fixture clashes, I suggest starting with a skeleton of events.

We already have a number of events and organisers of national standing who with ECF backing could be invited organise a framework of national competitions, which might raise the profile of our game.

Please view the below which is uncluttered with detail-

Olympic Chess Championships 2012– Birmingham Town Hall- Mark Hogarth

British Team championships –Liverpool-Involving at least one team from each country selected by its National body - 4NCL

English Individual Championships (Six players one of whom is the English amateur Champion, all play all) Simpson’s in the Strand – Raymond Keane

English Amateur Championships (Replacing the current British Championships) – Brighton – David Welch

England Junior Championships/Selection Tournaments- Michael Basman

County Championships- Regional events played at rapid play rates over one set weekend, Finals to be played over one set weekend at a Midland venue/Long play rates – Tony Corfe

Professional organisers and organisations should be allowed free reign to make a financial success of their involvement. Amateur organised events are expected to break even but in any case are to be underwritten by the ECF

Alan Ruffle

This is a copy of my posting from 12th June 2008, and only needs updating by my apologising to Peter Purland

More impotant than all of the above is the disgraceful situation whereby this forum is barred from direct access via the ECF this is a disgrace to democracy...............the board should be ashamed.

Alan Ruffle

[cjdemooi]

I went to London (please see my next post) to meet Charles Clarke today.

He wanted to know about recent developments within the ECF as despite his enthusiasm for chess, some of the wranglings over the last couple of years had understandably made him concerned and wary.

However, he seemed happy that changes were afoot and very keen to assist in any way he could.

We discussed the upcoming London Chess Classic and hopes for 2012 but, as he had explored with various people and government departments in the past, of primary interest was the idea of having chess recognised as a sport. Naturally this has been approached numerous times but he had a couple of relevant thoughts, primarily the need to establish why chess should have pre-eminence over other mind sports which have more prominence in other parts of the world.

I'm meeting the Chinese Ambassador and the President of the Chinese Chess Federation next month and this is exactly the point I want to raise. Although it can be argued, for example, far more people play Go in the East, chess surely has the advantage of being truly universal (China is currently 5th on the Fide ratings) and, unlike such games as poker and bridge, chess is purely based on skill. If we can gain international acceptance in this sphere, then we can progress to having chess as a full demonstration sport at a future Olympics. I think this is such an important aim it must be considered and actively pursued.

I do of course, as always, welcome comments.

[cjdemooi]

I would like to open up a question for discussion.

Although I said I wouldn't take a penny in expenses, I'm doing an awful lot of driving (650 miles on ECF business just since I was elected)

My time, stationery, accommodation, etc will always be out of my own pocket (unless it is otherwise offered by independent sources...and even then, I'll open it up to debate...I wouldn't accept a free junket without a general concensus both from the ECF and readers of this forum) but what do people think about me claiming for my petrol?

I could have just put in my receipts anyway but I've promised to be open in all things and money has to be very near the top of the list.

May I ask for your comments on this too please?

[Paul Buswell]

Speaking only for myself, I feel that you should claim for all direct costs you reasonably incur, but not for your time.

e.g.
Mileage at ECF standard rate
Accommodation (cheap but decent hotel or b&b)
Subsistence at modest middle of the road places
Stationery post and phone calls at cost

If you then choose to donate all or part that is your business, and a separate transaction.

If you don't claim you set a tricky precedent for a future President who might not be so well off

Caveats:
(a) claims in line with ECF financial regs
(b) ECF Board to be broadly behind your activities

PB

[Alex Holowczak]

If we can gain international acceptance in this sphere, then we can progress to having chess as a full demonstration sport at a future Olympics. I think this is such an important aim it must be considered and actively pursued.

Chess in the Olympics would be a great boost for the sport, both in the UK, and globally. Increased funding, increased player pool, it'd be great.

However, I can't see the IOC ever letting it in. Chess doesn't really comply with "Citius, Altius, Fortius", which doesn't really have anything to do with mental strength. Given that Ilyumzhinov has tried for 20 years without success, bringing in 0-minute defaults and drug testing to prove how much of a sport it is, the IOC haven't let it in. There are stronger candidates to join the Games, such as Squash, which were rejected.

Grandmasters seem opposed to the idea of random drug testing, too, on the grounds that drugs on the IOC banned substances list would be of no benefit to a chess player anyway. Ivanchuk could have had a 2 year ban, or something ludicrous, because he stormed off after a loss with the drug officials trailing in his wake without him noticing. I would also be wary about the negative publicity, there would be a predictable "Chess!? In the Olympics!"

I think the Olympic sport bid may be a waste of time, money and effort. However, getting chess to be recognised by the UK government as a sport would be fantastic. I think that is much more realistic.

[Stewart Reuben]

C J raised a couple of issues as above with the ECF Board. This is what I posted in response.

The ECF has never denied the rights of other mind sports also to be recognised as sports. Bridge has also fought long and hard for this. That is why the EBU concerns itself solely with duplicate bridge. That is because they convinced the government of the day that it is not a gambling game. Go, Shogi, Draughts have also made representations. Not, I think, Scrabble, because that is a proprietary trademark.
This is a fight that has been going on for at least 30 years. When Tony Banks was Minister for Sport he announced in Parliament that it was going to be changed. Unfortunately he was sacked within the month. When I met him during that brief, heady month, he said he had received more repreesntations on this issue than any other. One of his successors, Virginia Bottomley, told Alan Martin, then President of the BCF, that she only had a certain amount of political capital and would not be spending some of it on this issue.
The original purpose of formation of the Sports Council in about 1937 was to improve the fitness of the population in readiness for the looming war. That is why there is emphasis on physical activity.
How is sport defined by Sport England? Basically a sport is one recognised by Sport England.
When I met the secretary of the British IOC he had no philosophical problem with regarding chess as a sport. At that time he said it was up to the individual sport to raise its own money. He was against chess in the Games, but solely on pragmatic grounds. There are just too many sports in the whole event.
Chess was an exhibition sport at the Sydney Games. It is recognised by the IOC as a sport. But it is not recognised as a sport by most English-speaking countries and some others. FIDE believe Britain to be a key country. If we recognised chess as a sport, many other countries would fall into place. I think they are right.
There is a disadvantage to chess being recognised as a sport. It has to follow WADA Regulations. These are framed for physical sports and often inappropriate for chess. There is drug testing at major chess events. I believe nobody has ever tested positive. As far as I know, there is no damaging mind-enhancing drug, but you may know better.
There is a Mind Sports Council. Last year I went to Beijing representing England. Not the Games, but an event shortly afterwards. 9 of us went. The 5 games were chess, bridge, go, draughts, Chinese Chess.
There has been a Mind Sports Olympiad in England for many years. Some other countries have followed suit. 20-30 activities have been offered.

Chess has been recognised for educational purposes since shortly after the Second World War. There was a court case about this, due to the Dupre Legacy. About two years ago parliament agreed that all chess should be recognised for charitable purposes. Since then it seems to have stalled due to the bureaucracy of the Charity Commissioners.
That would be desirable for tax reasons, Gift Aid would be possible.
Why else should we want chess to be recognised as a sport?
1. Access to lottery money. I saw the problem with the draft bill that we didn't fit in. A big campaign was mounted to get people to write to their MPs. They did so. A petition was mounted. All to no avail.
2. There is matching funds from the government for Sportsmatch. This was for local events where sponsorship had been obtained. http://www.sportengland.org/funding.aspx. It was £3 million in 1997.
3. If chess was recognised as a sport it might eventually manage to get Zero Rated on VAT for entry fees. When David Anderton wrote about this matter, the Treasury responded, 'A line has to be drawn somewhere and it has been drawn in favour of participatory activity for young people.' Chess of course fits that better than any other sport.
4. Access to funding from SportsEngland. When I met a British Olympic Gold medallist yachtsman and told him the whole of chess got £60,000 he said that was ridiculous. He alone received £150,000. That was 2002. I said, but yachting is at least a spectator sport. His response was that it wasn't really except at the Games because there they used satellite tracking.
BUT getting funding from SportEngland could be a poisoned chalice. We would be a very small fish in the pond and might lose our support totally. Currently it comes from the DCMS itself. We are unique in this, the activity most like chess in this respect is music.

Stewart Reuben

[Roger de Coverly]

There is a disadvantage to chess being recognised as a sport.

Can I throw in a second one? The IOC and other sporting bodies seem to have an obsession with not allowing women to compete directly against men. I believe the only "mixed" Olympic sport is horse-riding in its various forms.

For example from Loz Cooper's report on Beijing last year http://www.chessuk.com/mindsports.pdf , I note this comment

I stress men and women as unlike many events there were strict rules that prevented ladies from playing in the open or mens event.

Surely "mind sports" should assert that gender differences should be irrelevant to them and insist on open competitions. It would be a seriously retrograde step if "chess as a sport" meant segregating women into isolated competitions.

[Matt Mackenzie]

Virginia Bottomley a "successor" to the (late, lamented) Tony Banks as Sports Minister? Shurely shome mishtake??

Did you perchance mean Kate Hoey, Stewart?

[Michele Clack]

What about setting up a separate educational trust for junior chess? This would presumably be entitled to claim charitable status (under education) without waiting for the rest of chess to be given the change of status officially.

This trust could then apply to the Big Lottery Fund for a grant towards supplying all schools ( I think it would have to be just state schools) with the COM follow up package free of charge. The matched funding could come from a grant from the ECF and any donations that could be raised from private sources.

All income from the COM would stay within the trust and be used for a mixture of initiatives to help beginners and coaching and other support for elite juniors and possibly another category for rapidly improving players to help them get up to international standard.

The time to apply for the grant would be once the free sets for schools start rolling out nationwide. It does take to few months to get a decision, but since this is a long term project that wouldn't matter. I suspect a lot of schools might be interested in the COM online scheme but not have enough money to buy the support package.

[Ian Thompson]

I could have just put in my receipts anyway but I've promised to be open in all things and money has to be very near the top of the list.

May I ask for your comments on this too please?

I agree with Paul Buswell.

[Stewart Reuben]

Roger >The IOC and other sporting bodies seem to have an obsession with not allowing women to compete directly against men. I believe the only "mixed" Olympic sport is horse-riding in its various forms.<

That is true. But in Beijing, Bridge had some mixed teams and they were the main organisers of the MS. FIDE just accepted the IOC rule. We played as Team GB in chess under the Union flag. Yet I was told we had to play as an English team in chess.

Michelle >What about setting up a separate educational trust for junior chess? This would presumably be entitled to claim charitable status (under education) without waiting for the rest of chess to be given the change of status officially.<

What another one? There is the: Chess Educational Trust; BCF Youth Chess Trust; John Robinson Trust; Richmond Junior Chess Club Trust; Dupre may still exist; there are sundry other more local ones. Malcolm Pein has announced he is setting up a new one on the back of the London Chess Classic.

It is very confusing and I suspect inefficient.

Stewart Reubn

[Michele Clack]

Malcolm Pein has announced he is setting up a new one on the back of the London Chess Classic.

Is this the Chess in Schools and Communities Charity that is mentioned on the London Classic Twitter site? I presume this is connected to the Charles Storey initiative. So someone is already on the case. What impact would getting sporting status for chess have on the ECF if someone has already mopped up the education angle? Presumably that is the area where funding might be available. It seems to me that the ECF has rather missed the boat.

[Stewart Reuben]

Michelle >Is this the Chess in Schools and Communities Charity that is mentioned on the London Classic Twitter site? I presume this is connected to the Charles Storey initiative. So someone is already on the case. What impact would getting sporting status for chess have on the ECF if someone has already mopped up the education angle? Presumably that is the area where funding might be available. It seems to me that the ECF has rather missed the boat.<

The Chess Educational Trust was created as an initiative by the then President (I think) by the BCF when I was still a schoolboy. It is not defunct. The BCF Youth Chess Trust was set up more recently, perhaps in the late 1990s. Thus to describe the ECF as having missed the boat on this matter is slightly inaccurate by about 50 years.

A problem with all these Trusts, as set up, is that they are not part of the federation. They are under the control of the Trustees who appoint their successors. Many will say that is a good thing.

The funding that is available about which you write is due to gifts or bequests often made with the idea that a charity has tax advantages. John Robinson did not leave his money to junior chess. He left it to the BCF. They applied for and were permitted a deed of variance and thus saved approximately £250,000 in death duties. None of the four trustees - all good people - are elected offficials of the ECF. The money could have been put in the BCFYCT, but they wanted to honour John's name - a laudable objective. None of the trustees of the BCFYCT are elected officers of the ECF either.

Stewart Reuben