Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:45 pm

Gerard Killoran wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:01 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:12 pm
The elephant in the room for the likes of Corbyn is that the present Russian regime does not believe that Ukraine should even exist.
That's not an 'elephant in the room'. Also, who are 'the likes of Corbyn'? People who want the war to end before Ukraine is reduced to rubble?
How is it not? Whatever utopian anti-war dreamers may imagine, Ukraine is not going to agree "peace" if that enables Russia to carry out its OPENLY STATED goals (there's this chap called Dugin, look him up) of full ethnic and cultural genocide of the Ukrainian nation and people.

You, and Corbyn, basically believe that the West is the sole source of evil in the world - and you cannot cope with anything different.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:48 pm

One reason for closing down this discussion is that it's completely wiped out what was quite an important debate about ECF policy. This is now essentially lost - thanks very much everybody.

But another is that it's degenerated into gibes, name-calling, caricatures and last-wordism. Maybe give it a bloody rest eh.
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Chris Goodall
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Chris Goodall » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:51 pm

Yeah, great work guys. We were having the first quite important debate in the history of ECForum, and now it's gone forever.
Definitely below the Goodall Line.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Paul Cooksey » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:58 pm

I suppose I might be a last wordist. But even though I think Justin is probably right that that the ECF discussion is now lost, I had been thinking about commenting again.

I was genuinely surprised by the overwhelming vote in favour of Tim's motions. Even after some of his language had been flattened, I expected it to be defeated. I often vote knowing I hold a minority opinion, but I thought "keep politics out of sport" was likely to be a majority opinion and was really surprised it turned out I was in a minority so small as to be a fringe view.

I was encouraging David to explain his view because I thought he might give me an insight into the majority view. But I wouldn't ask him to do it now, since he would surely be criticised for expressing it.

Personally, I have some privilege. I can satisfy my curiosity offline. But I try to use this ECF matters board to give wider visibility of what is going on in the ECF, so it is regrettable that that we can't discuss FIDE matters without getting buried in non-chess political disputes. I know it is a niche interest, but I do think the ECF matters.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:58 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:58 pm
I was genuinely surprised by the overwhelming vote in favour of Tim's motions.
I was disappointed but not surprised. It felt like mob rule.
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Chris Goodall
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Chris Goodall » Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:10 am

Am I right in thinking no-one has been tasked with actually doing anything pursuant to these two strongly worded resolutions? Or with evaluating the ECF's progress against the second resolution?
Definitely below the Goodall Line.

"A sound banker, alas, is not one that foresees danger and avoids it, but one who, when he is ruined, is ruined in a conventional way along with his fellows, so that no-one can really blame him."

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:11 am

Chris Goodall wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:10 am
Am I right in thinking no-one has been tasked with actually doing anything pursuant to these two strongly worded resolutions?
Presumably it would have been Malcolm Pein as FIDE Delegate. I don't think the ECF has done anything, in public at least. A somewhat bizarre protest against a formerly Russian player at the 4NCL was not I imagine anything to do with the ECF.

I suppose it should be assumed that the Tim Wall motion is at the very least an instruction not to vote for the incumbent at the imminent FIDE election.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:38 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:11 am
Chris Goodall wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:10 am
Am I right in thinking no-one has been tasked with actually doing anything pursuant to these two strongly worded resolutions?
Presumably it would have been Malcolm Pein as FIDE Delegate. I don't think the ECF has done anything, in public at least.
The resolutions have been noted and welcomed by leading members of the Ukrainian chess community. I don't think that they regard the ECF Council as a mob.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:11 am
I suppose it should be assumed that the Tim Wall motion is at the very least an instruction not to vote for the incumbent at the imminent FIDE election.
I think that that is self-evident. I am confident that it won't happen.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:00 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:38 pm
The resolutions have been noted and welcomed by leading members of the Ukrainian chess community. I don't think that they regard the ECF Council as a mob.
I had no idea they were familiar with that body
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Chris Goodall
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Chris Goodall » Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:24 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:38 pm
The resolutions have been noted and welcomed by leading members of the Ukrainian chess community. I don't think that they regard the ECF Council as a mob.
That's good to hear. There's a bakery near me that is still waiting to hear back from the Black Lives Matter movement, a full two years after resolving to stand shoulder to shoulder with them and putting up a sign to that effect.

I don't suppose the Ukrainians indicated their opinion of the ECF Board's directive of March 6th, requiring the long-serving Belarusian player in Northumbria Division 3 to pick a different flag? (There are, shall we say, a range of opinions on the matter among Northumbrians.)
Definitely below the Goodall Line.

"A sound banker, alas, is not one that foresees danger and avoids it, but one who, when he is ruined, is ruined in a conventional way along with his fellows, so that no-one can really blame him."

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:13 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:24 pm
I don't suppose the Ukrainians indicated their opinion of the ECF Board's directive of March 6th, requiring the long-serving Belarusian player in Northumbria Division 3 to pick a different flag? (There are, shall we say, a range of opinions on the matter among Northumbrians.)
There are a range of opinions throughout England on that sort of issue.

However, I must point out that the ECF Board's "directive" was only advisory, It was the Northumberland Chess Association who decided that the player to whom you refer must change their flag.

Millions of Belarusians are of course struggling to secure their own freedom.

I doubt whether you actually use flags in Northumbria Division 3. If you do, I imagine that the Ukrainians would be very sympathetic if your player wished to play under the red and white flag of the Belarusian people.

However, I doubt if they would have much sympathy for anyone who wished to (continue to) play under the flag of the dictator Lukashenko.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:25 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:58 pm
I was genuinely surprised by the overwhelming vote in favour of Tim's motions. Even after some of his language had been flattened, I expected it to be defeated. I often vote knowing I hold a minority opinion, but I thought "keep politics out of sport" was likely to be a majority opinion and was really surprised it turned out I was in a minority so small as to be a fringe view.

I was encouraging David to explain his view because I thought he might give me an insight into the majority view. But I wouldn't ask him to do it now, since he would surely be criticised for expressing it.
Thank you, but I do intend belatedly to honour the commitment which I made several months ago.

I don't expect to be criticised for expressing my views. I have been, and I fear that I shall again be, not just criticised but abused for the opinions which I hold and the actions which I have taken. I shall be addressing this aspect in a later post.

Regarding your first paragraph, I hope that I am not being unfair to you, but you seem to be saying that there is nothing particularly exceptional about Putin's actions and that it should be business as usual. I am not in the least surprised that a large majority of the ECF Council thought otherwise.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:30 pm

Before I go any further, I should like to re-post the text of the motion submitted to the ECF Council Meeting on Saturday 23rd April. I do this partly for context and partly because the last sentence has unfortunately been omitted from the text given in the draft Minutes of the Meeting and also posted elsewhere on the ECF website.

“THAT the ECF utterly condemns the regime of Russian President Vladimir Putin, which by its barbaric invasion of Ukraine and mass murder of Ukrainian civilians has put itself outside the civilised world community.

Council believes that, in view of these actions, as Russian Deputy Prime Minister from 2012-18, including during Russia’s illegal annexation and occupation of Crimea and involvement in conflict in Eastern Ukraine from 2014 onwards, Mr. Dvorkovich is not a fit and proper person to hold the post of FIDE President at this time.

Council accordingly calls on Mr. Dvorkovich immediately to step aside as FIDE President for the remainder of his term, thereby allowing FIDE Deputy President Bachar Kouatly of France to take over the responsibilities of President until the elections at the FIDE Congress in August 2022.

Council further calls on Mr. Dvorkovich to abandon his intention to seek re-election at the Congress."

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:35 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:27 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:00 am
Well could you spell out why the annexation of Crimea was not an issue previously and why having been Deputy Prime Minister was not an issue previously? Why were they items to be neglected then but items of urgency requiring resignation now? Why did they fail to render Dvorkovich "not a fit and proper" person in the first place?
VaIid questions but, as I've pointed out eIsewhere, the statement that Dvorkovich was Deputy Prime Minister ("DPP") invites the inference that he was the deputy to the Prime Minister which was never the case. The 2012-18 Medvedev Cabinet incIuded 9 persons hoIding a DPP post incIuding one, not Dvorkovich, whose titIe was First DPP. The person in the current UK government to whom Dvorkovic's roIe most cIoseIy equates is Kwasi Kwarteng with a roIe covering business, energy and industry.
In my first draft of a suggested compromise motion, I had changed "Deputy Prime Minister" to "a Deputy Prime Minister". That rather subtle alteration didn't survive into later drafts and I unfortunately failed to notice this.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:41 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:47 pm
… when I suggested his (sic) compromise motion was dishonest this shoehorning of stuff that was debateable into a composite motion was exactly what I objected to.
J T Melsom wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:41 pm

I reflected on the previous exchanges and am satisfied that presenting what seems to be a false prospectus or argument might reasonably be regarded as dishonest. Dishonesty is a more nuanced charge than bare faced lying, and I've no grounds to suggest that.
I was unaware of any significant difference of meaning between “dishonesty” and “lying”, so I consulted a dictionary. It failed to enlighten me.

People frequently make compromises about motions being put before meetings in order to maximise their support. In this instance, the text above found favour with the ECF Council by 21 votes to 3.

The allegation that such a process is dishonest strikes me as palpably absurd. It might be a different matter if anything in the motion were factually incorrect, but I can find nothing which is.

Nevertheless the allegation could have very serious consequences for me. An arbiter who loses his reputation for integrity will not get work for very long.

Fortunately for me, the officers of the Grand Chess Tour, which provides the bulk of my income from arbiting, have too much sense to be influenced by a small minority of members of this Forum. I also have no reason to think that the members of the FIDE Arbiters’ Commission have any doubts as to my continuing worthiness to hold Category A status.

Nevertheless, being made to feel, not for the first time, like a crime suspect being interrogated under caution is not an experience that I wish to repeat.

I have no regrets about my involvement in the preparation of the resolution put to Council. But I do regret mentioning it on this Forum. On a future occasion I shall be more circumspect.

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