Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:12 am

Well we all know the real(politik) answer - whilst we disapproved of Russia taking Crimea et al we didn't consider it serious enough to declare them persona non grata as a result. After a full scale invasion of Ukraine aimed at annihilating it as a meaningful nation, we do.

This was likely to be as true of the chess world as it was with many other things.
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David Sedgwick
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:54 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:00 pm
That's a point, but it's nothing to do with the point I'm making or the question I'm having no success getting answered.
Please be patient. I am considering exactly how to respond.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Chris Goodall » Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:03 am

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:12 am
Well we all know the real(politik) answer - whilst we disapproved of Russia taking Crimea et al we didn't consider it serious enough to declare them persona non grata as a result. After a full scale invasion of Ukraine aimed at annihilating it as a meaningful nation, we do.

This was likely to be as true of the chess world as it was with many other things.
I think you're missing the essence of Justin's question though - we aren't trying to cancel Dvorkovich for his actions in respect of the Ukraine invasion 2022. We're trying to cancel him for actions he took prior to 2018, that we could have cancelled him for any time between 2018 and December 2021 but chose not to.

Imagine you've just scored the equaliser to make it 2-2, and the referee can't find any grounds to disallow your goal, so instead decides that the goal you scored an hour earlier was offside and chalks it off.
Definitely below the Goodall Line.

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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:40 am

Malcolm spoke at length in Tim's absence.

The argument, as I understood it, is that the Kremlin benefits from Dvorkovich being President of FIDE because chess is an important reputational tool, particularly inside Russia.

It might be that Dvorkovich is less influential now that he was during Medvedev's presidency, or at the time of the invasion of the Crimea, although Malcom did not make that point. But the argument against him is not about how a significant figure in Russian politics he is, but just a basic demonstration he is a senior Russian politician.

I think the implication is that if the President was, say, a famous a Russian chess player not involved in politics, he might be able to distance himself from FIDE being used as a tool of the Kremlin. But Dvorkovich can not.

I don't agree with this argument, just trying to explain what I think was being said.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Chris Goodall » Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:28 pm

I'm just baffled as to what behaviour this is supposed to drive, if Dvorkovich risking a 15-year prison sentence to speak out against Putin isn't good enough.

If it's a propaganda coup to have Dvorkovich in charge of FIDE, it's a bigger one to have Dvorkovich forced out by one of the Western nations that Putin has been saying all along have an irrational vendetta against all things Russian.
Definitely below the Goodall Line.

"A sound banker, alas, is not one that foresees danger and avoids it, but one who, when he is ruined, is ruined in a conventional way along with his fellows, so that no-one can really blame him."

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:17 pm

I did make the point that, if this motion passed ( as it was obviously going to ), the ECF would be heading into the FIDE election in the position that they had declared themselves implacably opposed to the incumbent, who is likely to win essentially unopposed. The Chairman considered that this was not germane to the discussion, perhaps true, but if Council wished to offer an opinion on where this leaves the ECF, their last chance has gone.

This may not be a big problem. My impression is that the European Chess Union is content for the chess world to split into two, Europe v Rest of World, in which the latter will be the losers. I'm not sure that RoW see it the same way.
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:12 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:17 pm
I did make the point that, if this motion passed ( as it was obviously going to ), the ECF would be heading into the FIDE election in the position that they had declared themselves implacably opposed to the incumbent, who is likely to win essentially unopposed.
They've been doing that for as long as I can remember :oops:

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:46 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:12 pm
They've been doing that for as long as I can remember :oops:
Hardly last time.

edit : I suppose you are referring to the ECF's proud tradition of supporting the losing candidate. This time it is more like writing in a vote for None Of The Above.
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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:55 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:40 am
Malcolm spoke at length in Tim's absence.

The argument, as I understood it, is that the Kremlin benefits from Dvorkovich being President of FIDE because chess is an important reputational tool, particularly inside Russia.

It might be that Dvorkovich is less influential now that he was during Medvedev's presidency, or at the time of the invasion of the Crimea, although Malcom did not make that point. But the argument against him is not about how a significant figure in Russian politics he is, but just a basic demonstration he is a senior Russian politician.

I think the implication is that if the President was, say, a famous a Russian chess player not involved in politics, he might be able to distance himself from FIDE being used as a tool of the Kremlin. But Dvorkovich can not.

I don't agree with this argument, just trying to explain what I think was being said.
Thanks to PauI for the summary aIthough, without knowIedge of what goes through Dvorkovich's brain on the subject of Ukraine, and I suspect MaIcoIm is no more an authority on this than I am, the sentiment in the second paragraph is simpIy an assertion and doesn't merit being dignified as an 'argument'.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:26 pm

Malcolm did say he had met Dvorkovich in person and was unimpressed by his position on Ukraine.

I will be interested to hear David's thoughts when he shares them. I'd like to understand the case a bit better. I expected the motion to be close but it had overwhelming support.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:40 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:26 pm
Malcolm did say he had met Dvorkovich in person and was unimpressed by his position on Ukraine.

I will be interested to hear David's thoughts when he shares them. I'd like to understand the case a bit better. I expected the motion to be close but it had overwhelming support.
I suspect that, if I were in Dvorkovich's position, I might not be in a rush to divuIge my innermost thoughts on the subject. Say one thing and faII fouI of Putin, say the opposite and give ammunition to those wanting to evict one from the FIDE presidency.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed May 11, 2022 4:35 pm

What foIIows is oId news, from the Chess24 site on 15 March, but it may be of interest to those who haven't previousIy seen it.

"FIDE President and former Russian Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich breaks his silence and condemns the invasion in Ukraine, using the three-letter word (five letters in Russian) banned in his home country. Dvorkovich offers his condolences in a remarkable interview. “My thoughts are with Ukrainian civilians,” the former Kremlin official says as demands for his resignation continue.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
"Arkady Dvorkovich speaks for the first time publicly in a remarkable interview with the American magazine Mother Jones. “My thoughts are with Ukrainian civilians”, the FIDE President says. “Wars do not just kill priceless lives. Wars kill hopes and aspirations, freeze or destroy relationships and connections,” he tells Mother Jones' journalist Daniel King (not to be confused with the chess player), who notes that Dvorkovich vigorously opposes the war.
"The comments come just days after Ukrainian chess players demanded a blanket ban on all Russian players and the resignation of the FIDE President. Dvorkovich's comments to Mother Jones could be seen as an attempt to distance himself from the Kremlin. The 49-year-old was touring in Latin American and Africa when the invasion started, but is now said to be back in Russia. “The suffering that is taking place, and will take place, wrenches the soul,” he is quoted as saying by the magazine                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
"The FIDE President's repeated use of the word “war” is astounding as his former boss Vladimir Putin in early March took censorship to new heights by signing a law that could make it a crime simply to call the war a “war”. The Kremlin consistently says it is a “special military operation” and anyone spreading “false information” about the Ukrainian invasion faces up to 15 years in prison. Thousands of protesters have already been arrested for spreading the "no to war" ("нет войне") message — or even "*** *****", "two words" or simply a blank piece of paper — with many cases documented through social media, despite Russian authorities now blocking access to Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Dvorkovich served in the Kremlin for 10 years, first as an advisor to Russian President Dmitry Medvedev from 2008 to 2012, and then as Deputy Prime Minister when Medvedev was Prime Minister from 2012-2018. Before becoming FIDE President in 2018, he was the Chairman of the 2018 FIFA World Cup.While Dvorkovich has been praised over the last four years for his efforts to stabilise the chess world and increase sponsorship after the controversial tenure of former FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov, he has also faced criticism for his close Kremlin ties, criticism that has intensified since the invasion started.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
"Evgeny Surov, who runs Russia's most popular chess site chess-news.ru and is known as a fierce critic of  both the Russian regime and FIDE, tells chess24 he is surprised by how far Dvorkovich goes and thinks the comments should be seen as an attempt to be reelected as president this year.“I'm sure his desire to remain FIDE President is the main driving force. Otherwise, he certainly would not have been so “bold”, by Russian standards,” Surov says. He points out that the former Kremlin official is known to be careful with his words.With the new laws, Surov thinks the comments could be quite risky for Dvorkovich.“It is believed that Dvorkovich needs his position in FIDE in order to avoid prison. In this sense, it is also interesting whether he will continue to hold on to this position with all his might until the Putin regime falls,” Surov says."     

J T Melsom
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by J T Melsom » Sat May 14, 2022 11:26 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:54 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:00 pm
That's a point, but it's nothing to do with the point I'm making or the question I'm having no success getting answered.
Please be patient. I am considering exactly how to respond.
Did Justin's question receive an answer?

David Sedgwick
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat May 14, 2022 11:44 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 11:26 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:54 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:00 pm
That's a point, but it's nothing to do with the point I'm making or the question I'm having no success getting answered.
Please be patient. I am considering exactly how to respond.
Did Justin's question receive an answer?
No. My apologies to Justin.

I haven't forgotten, but Grand Chess Tour work has got in the way somewhat.

J T Melsom
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by J T Melsom » Sun May 15, 2022 8:23 am

Thanks. I think several people not just Justin were interested to read your further thoughts, so hope you find time soon.

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