British Championship Congress 2021

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Location: Bideford

Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:12 pm

Bournemouth is classified as SW for chess purposes, not that it really matters.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Alex McFarlane » Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:39 pm

Last 10 years - 3 North [Sheffield, N Shields, Hull wrote:, 2 North Wales [Llandudno, Aberystwyth], 1 Midlands [Coventry], 2 South/South-East [Bournemouth, Canterbury], 2 South-West [Torquay twice].

2010 Canterbury
2011 Sheffield
2012 North Shields
2013 Torquay
2014 Aberystwyth
2015 Coventry
2016 Bournemouth
2017 Llandudno
2018 Hull
2019 Torquay
This is called the British Championship. What definition of Britain allows Sheffield to be called the North?

And before anyone asks when is Scotland going to hold the British, under the current FIDE title regulations it is extremely unlikely to ever happen. (Players would need to declare the British as their national championship in place of the Scottish. Chess Scotland is unlikely to devalue its own championship.)

Andrew Zigmond
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Location: Harrogate

Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:11 pm

In chess terms Sheffield chess club is a member of the Yorkshire Chess Association, which is affiliated to the Northern Counties Union.

I've played in every British since 2013 and if I could return to any one of the six host towns Llandudno would be my choice by far.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Paul Bloom
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Paul Bloom » Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:34 pm

I must have lost the thread here is someone suggesting it will be held in Blackpool as the last I heard the British again is likely to be cancelled/online my only wish is that the ECF would make a definite announcement so we can all start thinking about our staycations for 2021 by late July all that want one will have had a vaccine and lots of chess players will have had 2 Jabs cant really see the problem even if it means showing your vaccine passport and reduced numbers

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Alex McFarlane » Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:43 pm

Hi Andrew,

The original post stated that the Welsh clubs were in North Wales. It didn't state that the English ones were in the north of England. When talking of Britain it is impolite to refer to the north of England as just the north as that must imply the north of Britain. Some old maps will show Scotland as North Britain.

When talking of England I have no problem with those places being referred to as simply the North.

The way things are looking at present Britain may well end at Carlisle very soon!

Mick Norris
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:17 pm

I wouldn't have said Aberystwyth was in North Wales
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Simon Rogers
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Simon Rogers » Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:22 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:39 pm
Last 10 years - 3 North [Sheffield, N Shields, Hull wrote:, 2 North Wales [Llandudno, Aberystwyth], 1 Midlands [Coventry], 2 South/South-East [Bournemouth, Canterbury], 2 South-West [Torquay twice].

2010 Canterbury
2011 Sheffield
2012 North Shields
2013 Torquay
2014 Aberystwyth
2015 Coventry
2016 Bournemouth
2017 Llandudno
2018 Hull
2019 Torquay
This is called the British Championship. What definition of Britain allows Sheffield to be called the North?

And before anyone asks when is Scotland going to hold the British, under the current FIDE title regulations it is extremely unlikely to ever happen. (Players would need to declare the British as their national championship in place of the Scottish. Chess Scotland is unlikely to devalue its own championship.)
Anything north of Watford Gap services on the M1 is called "The North".
I remember a song came out in December 1990 called this:
It's Grim up North
by The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu (The JAMs).
Sheffield was in the second verse after Ossett, Otley, Ilkley Moor, and just before Manchester, Castleford, Halifax.
Luckily Blackpool didn't get a mention in the lyrics.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:58 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:39 pm
And before anyone asks when is Scotland going to hold the British, under the current FIDE title regulations it is extremely unlikely to ever happen. (Players would need to declare the British as their national championship in place of the Scottish. Chess Scotland is unlikely to devalue its own championship.)
2003 was in Edinburgh and one of the 1990s Championships was in Dundee. Have FIDE changed the rules since then?

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:21 pm

Alex is right and I should have been more considerate of Scottish sensitivities - sorry. Actually, the original post referred to "people living up North" which I probably subliminally thought meant residents of [say] Newcastle-upon-Tyne rather than Inverness. For that reason, our Scottish friends weren't really in my thoughts.

Nick Grey
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Nick Grey » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:30 pm

I hope for Torquay. seems fair

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:01 pm

No problem Roger (Lancaster). I just sometimes feel the need to point out that Britain does not stop at Hadrian's wall Indeed, Haltwhistle, Northumberland is one of several places claiming to be the centre of Britain.

Roger (de Coverley), when the British was held in Edinburgh in 1985 the Scottish players were considered to be 'foreign' for title norm calculations. The rules subsequently changed so that national championships were allowed to be an exception to the 'foreigner' rule. This meant that regardless of the nationalities met, anyone playing in the British could get a norm on performance only. This applied at Edinburgh in 2003.

This was tightened up some years ago by FIDE (Nick might know the exact year). As a result players had to nominate one individual championship as their national championship (i.e. Scottish players could no longer get norms from both the Scottish and the British without meeting other nationality of opponent requirements, they had to nominate one or the other). As such any Scot playing in both the Scottish and the British would normally have the Scottish as their 'national' and, if they played in the British, hope to satisfy the normal foreign player requirements or exceptions.

Therefore if Scotland was to stage the British, it would be to the detriment of its own national championship.

The Welsh do not have this problem as the Welsh championship is only 7 rounds and therefore not eligible for norms.

David Sedgwick
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Location: Croydon

Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:11 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:39 pm
And before anyone asks when is Scotland going to hold the British, under the current FIDE title regulations it is extremely unlikely to ever happen. (Players would need to declare the British as their national championship in place of the Scottish. Chess Scotland is unlikely to devalue its own championship.)
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:58 pm
2003 was in Edinburgh and one of the 1990s Championships was in Dundee. Have FIDE changed the rules since then?
Yes, as Alex explains above.

The change was made at Baku Congress 2016, so it took effect from 1st July 2017.

David Sedgwick
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Location: Croydon

Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:19 pm

Regarding the British Championships 2021, I quote the following from the February 2021 ECF Newsletter:

"British Championships 2021
We are currently looking at options for the British and British Online for 2021 and expect the online event to become a regular fixture with timing to be agreed. Given current circumstances it seems highly unlikely that we will be able to run an OTB British in Torquay this August, and we are looking at carrying the venue booking forward to 2022. We will confirm the postponement/deferral in the next couple of weeks.
Assuming there is no OTB British event at the same scale this year we are organizing a British Online 2021 in August as indicated on the schedule. This will either be a completely online event along the lines of the Christmas 2020 event, or possibly a hybrid with the qualifiers/initial stages online and finals or playoffs OTB as circumstances allow."

There may be an update in the March Newsletter, which is due to be issued in the coming week.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:52 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:01 pm
As a result players had to nominate one individual championship as their national championship (i.e. Scottish players could no longer get norms from both the Scottish and the British without meeting other nationality of opponent requirements, they had to nominate one or the other). As such any Scot playing in both the Scottish and the British would normally have the Scottish as their 'national' and, if they played in the British, hope to satisfy the normal foreign player requirements or exceptions.

Therefore if Scotland was to stage the British, it would be to the detriment of its own national championship.
I don't understand this argument. Why does it make a difference where the British Championship is held? If a Scot played in both the Scottish Championship and the British Championship wouldn't they have a choice on which to choose as their national championship wherever it was held?

If they did have choice wouldn't it be better to choose the Scottish Championship because, if a Scottish player plays in the Scottish championship, I would expect most of their opponents to be Scottish, so they would be unlikely to meet the foreign player requirement, whereas, if a Scottish player plays in the British championship, I would expect most of their opponents not to be Scottish, so they would be likely to meet the foreign player requirement. The British Championship would also be likely to be exempt because it fulfilled the requirements of 1.43e, while the Scottish Championship wouldn't be.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Briish Championship Congress 2021

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:21 am

Ian,

If a Scot chose the British as if it were a normal event then they are likely to play too many English players for a regular norm. There may be 20 players with 10 titled in every round that are not ENG but that is gamble.

If the Scot chose the British as their national championship then they are much less likely to play in the Scottish as no norm is likely from it. Why would Chess Scotland therefore allow an event which could potentially disadvantage its own event?

There does exist the possibility of running the Scottish within the British but then you have the Scottish title probably being won by someone far enough down the field that the title becomes a bit of a lottery, with a real chance that the Swiss Gambit would decide the Scottish Champion.

Those arguments totally ignore the financial side. The last time the Scottish was held in Edinburgh, the locals raised money to cover the venue costs.
Who would pay for the event if it were held in Scotland? The same financial arrangement is unlikely to gain support.

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