Cheating in chess

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:05 pm

In a quick game you might even overlook that Kxe1 was possible, because all kinds of stupid things happen to the brain in those circumstances.
Last edited by JustinHorton on Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Joseph Conlon
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Joseph Conlon » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:07 pm

Black had about 6 minutes compared to my 4 (it was a rapid 10+0 game).

Agree about single moves not being decisive etc, but there were also plenty of other reasons to be suspicious (e.g. not many people on lichess combine 2650 rapid ratings with 2150 blitz ones).
JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:05 pm
In a quick game you might even overlook that Kxe1 was possible, because all kinds of dtupid things happen to the brain in those circumstances.
Admittedly there are existence proofs of terrible one-move blunders by super-GMs in slow-play games, but (sadly?) my previous experience is that players of that rating do not miss that short of thing at a 10+0 minute time controls....

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:14 pm

People miss all kinds of nonsense though
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:11 pm

Another New Yorker piece on cheating in bridge
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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MartinCarpenter
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:13 pm

I didn't realise the boycott actually got that thorough - fun :)

Besides the face to face stuff that article mentions, there's been quite a lot of issues with people cheating online in bridge. Some of it from people treating it much more casually than FtF. That is obviously unbelievably easy to do on a technical level, hence those statistics being really quite useful there. Much harder to build the evidence base using FtF play.

I'm always a bit wary about these things about people 'spotting' patterns/codes. Humans are truly brilliant at spotting patterns even when they're not actually there.

Paul Habershon
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paul Habershon » Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:54 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:13 pm
I didn't realise the boycott actually got that thorough - fun :)

Besides the face to face stuff that article mentions, there's been quite a lot of issues with people cheating online in bridge. Some of it from people treating it much more casually than FtF. That is obviously unbelievably easy to do on a technical level, hence those statistics being really quite useful there. Much harder to build the evidence base using FtF play.

I'm always a bit wary about these things about people 'spotting' patterns/codes. Humans are truly brilliant at spotting patterns even when they're not actually there.
Recent issues of the EBU magazine 'English Bridge' have contained pages of online cheating convictions using the offenders' real names. A typical indictment reads thus:
Members suspended - An EBU Disciplinary Committee considered the following charges against xxxx xxxx (BBO name xxxx) and xxxx xxxx (BBO name xxxx) at a hearing in March.

- That when they played in online games on the BridgeBase Online platform organised by the EBU and by the xxxx Bridge Club between June and September 2020, they had knowledge of some aspects of each other's hands obtained by illicit communication.

- That they took advantage of this information to make calls and plays which they were unlikely to have made had they not known the layout of the hands, to the benefit of their bridge scores on those sessions.

The defendants denied the charges. A disciplinary hearing was held. The Disciplinary Committee found the charges proved to their comfortable satisfaction, and that the defendants' conduct constituted an offence under paragraph 3.2(iv) of the EBU Disciplinary Rules, being unfair or dishonest play. The Committee imposed a sanction of suspension of EBU membership for a period of three years.


There were 10 such guilty verdicts covering three pages of the September 2021 issue.

I note that real names emerged despite the BBO Online platform being populated by invented 'handles', much as on chess online platforms. It's a pity that more chess cheats are not thus named and shamed. On this forum we are required to use real names. I suppose it is too much to expect this practice to be required by the likes of lichess, ICC, chess.com etc.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:49 pm

This has probably been posted, but there seems a long history of Bridge cheating listed on Wikipedia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_bridge

The EBU magazine English Bridge obviously see no danger in reporting 'online cheating convictions' with real world 3 year penalties seemingly being dished out. Whereas in English chess there doesn't seem to be any penalties to speak of at all and it's all very hush hush. Players instead I think avoid long play online congresses like the plague because they remain riddled with players happy to play way above their pay grade, winning and drawing games at will.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:04 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:49 pm
Whereas in English chess there doesn't seem to be any penalties to speak of at all and it's all very hush hush.
The problem being that for any given move it's speculation without physical evidence whether the move was played because the player is highly skilled, got lucky or consulted outside assistance.

The EBU are presumably confident that their decisions wouldn't be challenged in Court, or that if they were, they could find expert witnesses able to convincingly testify as to the improbability of the play if there was no consultation or knowledge of hidden cards.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:24 pm

The difference between the two approaches is interesting, though, isn't it?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:34 pm

Bridge seem to be
a) doing something and
b) talking about it

Chess seem to be
a) sometimes doing something maybe and
b) refusing to even discuss numbers of cases

or have I missed something?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:29 pm

There's also an administrative difference, which might be important in this context - as I understand it, all serious competitive bridge in this country goes through the EBU, whereas serious competitive chess is run by a lot of independent small businesses, and it's not clear just how much power the ECF has over any of them.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:14 pm

"whereas serious competitive chess is run by a lot of independent small businesses, and it's not clear just how much power the ECF has over any of them."

And indeed, ECF sometimes defers to those businesses...

Paul Habershon
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paul Habershon » Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:17 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:29 pm
There's also an administrative difference, which might be important in this context - as I understand it, all serious competitive bridge in this country goes through the EBU, whereas serious competitive chess is run by a lot of independent small businesses, and it's not clear just how much power the ECF has over any of them.
...though the ECF should be concerned about integrity if independent competitive chess is being rated.

Of course, it's the lockdowns and the proliferation of online bridge and chess which have exacerbated the cheating issue. A lot of rated bridge is now being played on the RealBridge platform.
https://youtu.be/tQtlrr3z0mg
As you will see from that demo, you need a camera and microphone. I have never had these on my desktop PCs, but I was due a new laptop and most now have inbuilt camera and microphone. These devices don't make cheating impossible, but it's much harder than on BridgeBase Online. In some ways I almost prefer BBO because you are free to shout at the screen, insult your opponents and swear about partner's play. I sometimes wonder what my invisible chess opponents are up to, then think I'd rather not know.

Are there any online chess platforms with visual and audio similar to RealBridge?

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:35 pm

Jack Rudd >all serious competitive bridge in this country goes through the EBU,<
It depends what you mean by serious competitive bridge. The EBU have NOTHING to do with rubber bridge. They have convinced the government that duplicate bridge is NOT a gambling game - and thus is not subject to those strictures. Duplicate bridge has virtually no prize money as well. People cheat presumably for status, or the fun of it. Poker is, of course, a money game and people cheat in various ways.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:50 am

It’s a shame what’s happened with the 4NCL Online Congresses. Quite a neat idea at the beginning of Covid times but has now dwindled to 10 entries this weekend in the Open section. The slight clue for the loss of popularity being in yet another Lichess account ‘violation’ mid event.

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