Cheating in chess

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Jonathan Bryant
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:35 pm

PeterFinn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:59 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:26 pm
I don't really understand this, the player has zero tournament points, so why do we think he is choosing to lose so many games in a row?
My suspicion is that this user has been deliberately losing games in order to get back to the 1500 starting rating in order to do a speedrun back up to his usual rating. He has got back down to 1500 twice only to quickly start winning again back up to his usual standard.

The concept of a chess speedrun has been popularised by the likes of Nakamura where he played games against users on chess.com all the way from the starting rating of 1200 up to 3000.
This may be true but it's certainly not all he's doing. E.g. when he chucked a game against me it was just after he resigned one in a winning position. But subsequently he has won many (and deliberately lost many) without getting anywhere near back to 1500.

And the joy of winning those games? Mine was not a win in a few moves, but picking up all his pieces one after the other in the space of a half-dozen moves or so before he threw in the towel - I can't say that brought me much joy.


As for whether s/he should just be ignored. Well maybe but when there's the perfectly serviceable alternative of banning them available, I don't see why it shouldn't be used.

If LiChess are going to ignore people like this chap(ess) feeling that they have more important anti-cheating work to be getting on with it - well I wouldn't necessarily argue that they're wrong. Just as long as they say very clearly that's what they're going to do.

PeterFinn
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by PeterFinn » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:43 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:31 pm
PeterFinn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:59 pm
My suspicion is that this user has been deliberately losing games in order to get back to the 1500 starting rating in order to do a speedrun back up to his usual rating. He has got back down to 1500 twice only to quickly start winning again back up to his usual standard.

The concept of a chess speedrun has been popularised by the likes of Nakamura where he played games against users on chess.com all the way from the starting rating of 1200 up to 3000.
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to open a new account if all you want is a 1500 rating?
Lichess and Chess.com both use Glicko rating systems where the amount your rating changes is based on your rating deviation (essentially how accurate the system thinks your rating is). If you open a new account your rating deviation is very high and you'll find that the results of your first few games result in a very large changes in rating (100s of points) so that new users can very quickly get accurate ratings.

I believe for his speedruns Nakamura had a special modified Chess.com account which meant his wins still resulted in very small rating changes and hence he could play lots of different users through different ratings bands. Anyone wanting to copy this behaviour doesn't have this option however and so it seems some will go to extreme lengths to achieve this.

PeterFinn
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:09 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by PeterFinn » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:57 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:35 pm
This may be true but it's certainly not all he's doing. E.g. when he chucked a game against me it was just after he resigned one in a winning position. But subsequently he has won many (and deliberately lost many) without getting anywhere near back to 1500.

And the joy of winning those games? Mine was not a win in a few moves, but picking up all his pieces one after the other in the space of a half-dozen moves or so before he threw in the towel - I can't say that brought me much joy.


As for whether s/he should just be ignored. Well maybe but when there's the perfectly serviceable alternative of banning them available, I don't see why it shouldn't be used.

If LiChess are going to ignore people like this chap(ess) feeling that they have more important anti-cheating work to be getting on with it - well I wouldn't necessarily argue that they're wrong. Just as long as they say very clearly that's what they're going to do.
The second game you posted looks like Rd2 could well have just been a careless blunder followed by him chucking away all his remaining pieces out of annoyance. Maybe a fit of rage then saw him immediately resign his next game or maybe he decided he was no longer in the right headspace to be playing chess.

PeterFinn
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by PeterFinn » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:07 pm

PeterFinn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:57 pm
The second game you posted looks like Rd2 could well have just been a careless blunder followed by him chucking away all his remaining pieces out of annoyance. Maybe a fit of rage then saw him immediately resign his next game or maybe he decided he was no longer in the right headspace to be playing chess.
On further inspection of his account I agree this is probably unlikely and his behaviour is difficult to explain. Another possible explanation is that he resigns games (or deliberately loses) against openings he doesn't like, perhaps he sometimes wants to practice against particular openings and resigns until he gets one of those openings.

Geoff Chandler
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Location: Under Cover

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:32 pm

Hi Roger,

Then only play players you know, set up a wee gang of 10 - 20 mixed strength players and just play your known buddies.
That way you can be 99% sure they will play fair and whatever else is happening on the site you can all ignore.
Maybe make the games unrated. All good clean fun.

Of course the Lichess Randomizer may kick in and bans one of you. Tough luck...and good luck with the appeal.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:46 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:13 pm
does it really matter.
You should get that translated into Latin and put on a coat of arms Geoff
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Jonathan Bryant
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:53 pm

PeterFinn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:07 pm
PeterFinn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:57 pm
The second game you posted looks like Rd2 could well have just been a careless blunder followed by him chucking away all his remaining pieces out of annoyance. Maybe a fit of rage then saw him immediately resign his next game or maybe he decided he was no longer in the right headspace to be playing chess.
On further inspection of his account I agree this is probably unlikely and his behaviour is difficult to explain. Another possible explanation is that he resigns games (or deliberately loses) against openings he doesn't like, perhaps he sometimes wants to practice against particular openings and resigns until he gets one of those openings.
The curious thing about my game was that they threw away all his pieces *after* we left the opening.
S/He played the opening - a classical caro kann- perfectly. But only after a 2.5 minute think on move 3. It was a 5/0 game.

Not long before they played me they had faced a ... Nf6 Caro - but evidently didn’t know the theory at all

Either way - I don’t think your explanation holds.

Eg
Earlier tonight s/he deliberately tossed in his queen - but quite a long way into the game


Also, very many of his 60+ consecutive losses six months ago came from playing f3/g4

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:57 pm

PeterFinn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:57 pm
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:35 pm
This may be true but it's certainly not all he's doing. E.g. when he chucked a game against me it was just after he resigned one in a winning position. But subsequently he has won many (and deliberately lost many) without getting anywhere near back to 1500.

And the joy of winning those games? Mine was not a win in a few moves, but picking up all his pieces one after the other in the space of a half-dozen moves or so before he threw in the towel - I can't say that brought me much joy.


As for whether s/he should just be ignored. Well maybe but when there's the perfectly serviceable alternative of banning them available, I don't see why it shouldn't be used.

If LiChess are going to ignore people like this chap(ess) feeling that they have more important anti-cheating work to be getting on with it - well I wouldn't necessarily argue that they're wrong. Just as long as they say very clearly that's what they're going to do.
The second game you posted looks like Rd2 could well have just been a careless blunder followed by him chucking away all his remaining pieces out of annoyance. Maybe a fit of rage then saw him immediately resign his next game or maybe he decided he was no longer in the right headspace to be playing chess.

This explanation - as you’ve discovered - could be plausible once but not dozens and dozens of times.

But you make a good point. We shouldn’t just take a game or two in isolation. Patterns are what matters not any one piece data alone

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:46 pm

Played around an hour ago according to LiChess.

He won the next three games which would again suggest he's not always deliberately trying to get his rating down to 1500.







[EDIT]
Not long after this game he won one in the same line. More evidence to show the theory that he deliberately loses against against certain openings because he doesn't like them just doesn't stand up.

Which is not surprising. Occam's Razor and all that.
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:55 am, edited 4 times in total.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:53 pm

As to whether it matters or not ...

I would say our pal Freddy being banned or not matters an awful lot less than the very large difference to what LiChess say about their cheat detection and the reality of cheat detection on LiChess.

Every game I post - and it's only a matter of a few seconds' work each time to find that it's not a hardship - just emphasises the totally irrelevance of

"If somebody listening has some very smart idea about some work around where they could cheat and get away with it, it is overwhelmingly likely one of us has already thought of it and has already investigated the way to catch it"

as an answer to a question about people cheating every now and again on lichess.

Geoff Chandler
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Location: Under Cover

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:21 am

Hi Justin,

'quod vere non refert.' or something like that.

It will look good under the Chandler Badge. crossed white flags and shrugged shoulders.

I'm in the same camp as John (Cox) "Can someone explain to me why anyone cares what someone's lichess rating is?"

It's number paranoia. :)

They are all getting themselves all in a tiss and lathered up over nothing.
Don't play them, block them, go on the Lichess forum (you probably cannot say his name there so drop hints.)
Send in the evidence, threaten to cancel your subscription.

All this speculation over some unknown player who once banned will just come back.

"Maybe a fit of rage then saw him immediately resign his next game or
maybe he decided he was no longer in the right headspace to be playing chess."

Maybe they have medical issues, just let it go.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:25 am

Jonathan,
It could also be that the statement from Lichess is rather clever, because it is true but people read into it more than it actually says. If there are 40 or 50 people working on cheat detection, then surely it is true that they will have thought of the vast majority of ways people cheat? Clearly, if they know how people will, or even might, cheat then they will investigate how to catch it. That doesn't however necessarily mean they will effective in that endeavour.

Jonathan Bryant
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:48 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:46 pm
He won the next three games which would again suggest he's not always deliberately trying to get his rating down to 1500.
As it turns out the next game he played - about 45 minutes ago according to Lichess - he resigned rather than take his opponent's queen which was en prise.

It's +14 -9 for Fred today and - despite these unfortunate losses - still a 29 point rating gain at blitz. Not a bad Saturday, I suppose.

Jonathan Bryant
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:01 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:35 pm
PeterFinn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:59 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:26 pm
I don't really understand this, the player has zero tournament points, so why do we think he is choosing to lose so many games in a row?
My suspicion is that this user has been deliberately losing games in order to get back to the 1500 starting rating in order to do a speedrun back up to his usual rating. He has got back down to 1500 twice only to quickly start winning again back up to his usual standard.

The concept of a chess speedrun has been popularised by the likes of Nakamura where he played games against users on chess.com all the way from the starting rating of 1200 up to 3000.
This may be true but it's certainly not all he's doing.

Actually, having looked at his graph, this 'getting back to 1500' theory is simply wrong as an explanation as to what he's doing now.

He has dropped back to around 1500 twice. May 2019 and August 2020.

Over the last six months - despite all the deliberate losses - he's not been below 1850.

Paul McKeown
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paul McKeown » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:06 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:46 pm
Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:13 pm
does it really matter.
You should get that translated into Latin and put on a coat of arms Geoff
Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:21 am

'quod vere non refert.' or something like that.
Cicero may have said something like hoc nihil ad te pertinet. Ask John Saunders, he's the expert.