Cheating in chess
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Re: Cheating in chess
I think I understand a bit more now. I searched all the games that were less than 10 moves and you can explain quite a lot of the losses. There are instant resignations against anyone with a question mark (i.e. without an established rating). The others generally involve a terrible mistake which looks to be down to a pre-move/automove. As some example we have
https://lichess.org/K0Ak9rWf#18
Presumably Qxd8 was intended but the Queen feel a square short (we've all done it)
https://lichess.org/gcxl0dk1
Clearly Bd3 was intended, but Qd3 was played
These errors are perhaps more common than one would expect, but could it be that Freddy1963 is not in fact a rating, but rather a date of birth, in which case mouseslips are perhaps more understandable.
https://lichess.org/K0Ak9rWf#18
Presumably Qxd8 was intended but the Queen feel a square short (we've all done it)
https://lichess.org/gcxl0dk1
Clearly Bd3 was intended, but Qd3 was played
These errors are perhaps more common than one would expect, but could it be that Freddy1963 is not in fact a rating, but rather a date of birth, in which case mouseslips are perhaps more understandable.
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Re: Cheating in chess
The most recent games, maybe (though I think it’s a very charitable reading of what’s going on). Not the 67 in a row - take a look at these and tell me it’s mouseslips...Matthew Turner wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:20 amI think I understand a bit more now. I searched all the games that were less than 10 moves and you can explain quite a lot of the losses. There are instant resignations against anyone with a question mark (i.e. without an established rating). The others generally involve a terrible mistake which looks to be down to a pre-move/automove. As some example we have
https://lichess.org/K0Ak9rWf#18
Presumably Qxd8 was intended but the Queen feel a square short (we've all done it)
https://lichess.org/gcxl0dk1
Clearly Bd3 was intended, but Qd3 was played
These errors are perhaps more common than one would expect, but could it be that Freddy1963 is not in fact a rating, but rather a date of birth, in which case mouseslips are perhaps more understandable.
https://lichess.org/@/freddy1963/search ... order=desc
Same point goes to Graham’s response - this isn’t someone losing a few games due to poor openings / mouseslips (unless you count playing 1.f3 2.g4 over and over as just a poor opening).
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Re: Cheating in chess
That's true - but that's not what he's doing at the moment. For some time he's been interspersing obvious deliberate losses with many wins. That's easily seen just be looking at his record.Graham Borrowdale wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:00 amAnother factor is the bad habit, a bit like chasing your bets, of playing ‘one more game’, despite being tired and on a losing streak, and watching your rating plummet. That’s not cheating, it’s just playing badly
Graham Borrowdale wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:00 amMy thoughts entirely, although substitute poor opening of your choice.Paul Cooksey wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:31 amOh dear. Am I going to have to stop playing the Morra since it is artificially deflating my rating?
Well as it happens the reason why I got interested in this guy is because against me he gave away all his pieces in consecutive moves after a dozen moves of perfect Caro Kann theory.
Your concern doesn't match his record either. Playing rubbish openings is a perfectly legitimate - and common - blitz tactic. There's a big difference between that and what's going on with our fellow Freddy.
As for the mouse slip theory - well how do you explain Qxd7 at the end of this game ...
https://lichess.org/Wx70Qor6#26
or the multiple games when he gives pieces away in consecutive moves
or the multiple games in which he resigns in winning positions
?
I'm all for looking charitably on people where possible but inventing your own version of the lichess rules, inventing explanations that don't fit the games as they've been played, ignoring all the games that don't fit the explanation you're putting forward -
well I think that's somewhat more than bending over backwards to be fair.
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
Well I have my own view on that - but as demonstrated above, it is not necessary to say that they have been purposefully losing games to <insert any intention here>Matthew Turner wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 am
It would appear the player has been purposefully losing games, but I am not sure that you can say that they have been purposefully losing games to deflate or increase their rating.
For whatever reason you seem reluctant to accept that this account is breaking the lichess rules even though it clearly is. Well each to their own. I'll leave you to that view if you want it.
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
This is absolutely my favourite aspect of the whole business, especially when the opponents don't then play the strongest move.Matt Fletcher wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:26 amunless you count playing 1.f3 2.g4 over and over as just a poor opening
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
I brought up playing poor openings because I don't think having fun in a way that impacts your results is exactly cheating, unless you then take advantage of your lower rating in some way. I think this is connected to the point Matthew is making.
Of course he is being, in Jonathan's idiom, a bellend. I think you can criticise lichess for not dealing with people who are being bellends well enough on this evidence. But I don't think it has direct relevance to whether they are doing a good job with cheats.
Of course he is being, in Jonathan's idiom, a bellend. I think you can criticise lichess for not dealing with people who are being bellends well enough on this evidence. But I don't think it has direct relevance to whether they are doing a good job with cheats.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Jonathan,
I am simply trying to maintain an open mind on this
In the game you highlighted
https://lichess.org/Wx70Qor6#26
It ends with the terrible blunder Qxd7. You could explain this in a couple of ways. The LIchess engine suggests that Qd4 is the best move so perhaps this was intended and there a mouseslip (albeit a substantial one!). Alternatively, d6 is an outpost, so you may go to play Qd6, before realizing that you haven't in fact castled yet. In trying to retract the move you accidentally play Qxd7. I appreciate that you may feel that I am performing mental gymnastics to support the player, but I really aren't. It is a fundamental principle of cheat detection that you have a null hypothesis of innocence and that is what you are looking for.
I am simply trying to maintain an open mind on this
In the game you highlighted
https://lichess.org/Wx70Qor6#26
It ends with the terrible blunder Qxd7. You could explain this in a couple of ways. The LIchess engine suggests that Qd4 is the best move so perhaps this was intended and there a mouseslip (albeit a substantial one!). Alternatively, d6 is an outpost, so you may go to play Qd6, before realizing that you haven't in fact castled yet. In trying to retract the move you accidentally play Qxd7. I appreciate that you may feel that I am performing mental gymnastics to support the player, but I really aren't. It is a fundamental principle of cheat detection that you have a null hypothesis of innocence and that is what you are looking for.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Here's my game with him.
Perfect theory - albeit after very curious thinking time on move 2 and 3 - then ... Well what would you call it? A lot of mouse slips?
Perfect theory - albeit after very curious thinking time on move 2 and 3 - then ... Well what would you call it? A lot of mouse slips?
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
The terms of service sayJonathan Bryant wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:45 amWell I have my own view on that - but as demonstrated above, it is not necessary to say that they have been purposefully losing games to <insert any intention here>Matthew Turner wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 am
It would appear the player has been purposefully losing games, but I am not sure that you can say that they have been purposefully losing games to deflate or increase their rating.
For whatever reason you seem reluctant to accept that this account is breaking the lichess rules even though it clearly is. Well each to their own. I'll leave you to that view if you want it.
2. Artificially inflating or deflating your rating. This is where a User purposefully loses, or has arranged with an opponent to win. As a result, the User’s rating will artificially increase or decrease.
That seems to me to link purposefully losing to artificially inflating or deflating rating.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I don't know why he spent over two minutes on move 3 in a five minute game, perhaps he had to answer the door, the internet went down or the dog started barking. As for the moves, the most obvious explanation would appear to me that he intended 17. Qb5 but slipped to a6. After that he just gave up and gave away all his pieces. He moved instantly and he didn't carry on until mate, so it isn't like he was trying to be overly obnoxious. In isolation, it is hard to see this as a major transgression.Jonathan Bryant wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:06 pmHere's my game with him.
Perfect theory - albeit after very curious thinking time on move 2 and 3 - then ... Well what would you call it? A lot of mouse slips?
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Re: Cheating in chess
Is there any reason to see this game in isolation
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
No reason to see that game in isolation. I have played through a lot of this guy's games (from recently) and I'm not entirely clear that he is is purposefully losing. He does some strange things and I guess he has a bit of a an attitude.
Take this game
https://lichess.org/Bf24NO2q/black#10
Perfectly sensible first 5 moves then he suddenly resigns - irrefutable evidence of purposefully losing surely?
However, if you look at the move times it show his opponent taking 22 seconds on move 6. So, possibly Freddy just got bored and decided to resign and play someone else. That must happen a lot online and I'm not sure we'd want an algorithm that banned people for doing this.
Take this game
https://lichess.org/Bf24NO2q/black#10
Perfectly sensible first 5 moves then he suddenly resigns - irrefutable evidence of purposefully losing surely?
However, if you look at the move times it show his opponent taking 22 seconds on move 6. So, possibly Freddy just got bored and decided to resign and play someone else. That must happen a lot online and I'm not sure we'd want an algorithm that banned people for doing this.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I'll second that.Paul Cooksey wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:58 am
Of course he is being, in Jonathan's idiom, a bellend. I think you can criticise lichess for not dealing with people who are being bellends well enough on this evidence. But I don't think it has direct relevance to whether they are doing a good job with cheats.
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Re: Cheating in chess
"I don't know why he spent over two minutes on move 3 in a five minute game, perhaps he had to answer the door, the internet went down or the dog started barking."
I can confirm all of the above have made me spend weird time on a move, so you can't take that in isolation.
I agree that the person in question may well be a waste of oxygen.
I can confirm all of the above have made me spend weird time on a move, so you can't take that in isolation.
I agree that the person in question may well be a waste of oxygen.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I think it's just some guy with a slightly addled personality, made worse by being locked down for a year, and he's taken to drink.
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