Cheating in chess

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Jonathan Bryant
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:16 pm

Yes, I understand your argument it just seems super unlikely in this case.

What would be the point in continuing when the account had been reported multiple times?

Also, the example you give of subtle cheating is very different to what’s going on here. It’s hard to imagine how Fred could be more blatant than he is.


Joseph Conlon wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:37 pm
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:31 am
Are you suggesting that Freddie is some kind of LiChess test programme? I find that very hard to believe. That would mean that while they're saying that cheating is really nowhere near as big a deal as the users make out, they're deliberately having their users play a cheat whilst not catching it for over two years.
It is one explanation for how an account that appears to clearly violates the terms of service can survive without being banned, after being reported many times. Whether its true or not in this case is another matter.

I do, however, believe lichess must have some accounts that they would deliberately violate the terms of service on - if you want to catch all forms of cheating, or improve your methods, it is very useful to have a sample of games and accounts that you know is 100% (im)pure and has no false positives.

Say you want to catch 'intelligent' cheating by strong players who are occasionally resorting to an engine at critical positions. Rather than guessing what it looks like when a GM uses an engine, the best approach to understand it, and think of strategies to catch it, would be to ask Matt, or some other GM, to play games on the live system on a known control account while they are doing precisely this.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:48 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:24 pm
So there is the solution, if you think you have just played an online cheat, block them.
That could work where the pairing scheme is one where you enter a pool and are paired with the next available opponent. It breaks down if playing in a team or individual championship where it would be difficult to decline a pairing without disrupting the event.

Over the last year, one has become aware of players whose results in competitions have been cancelled, but are nevertheless still allowed to play.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:55 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:48 pm

Over the last year, one has become aware of players whose results in competitions have been cancelled, but are nevertheless still allowed to play.
A while back I was playing in the twitter chess event on Lichess. This was run by Matt Fletcher and others.

During one of my games after a few moves the game suddenly ended. I sign came up saying that my opponent had been violating the lichess terms of service. Although the game was ended with immediate effect, his account was not closed. Which struck me as odd.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:15 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:55 pm
During one of my games after a few moves the game suddenly ended. I sign came up saying that my opponent had been violating the lichess terms of service. Although the game was ended with immediate effect, his account was not closed. Which struck me as odd.
It could have been the lichess equivalent of being detected taking a phone to the Cafe. The game itself is forfeited, but no further penalties.

Jonathan Bryant
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:18 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:15 pm

It could have been the lichess equivalent of being detected taking a phone to the Cafe.
What could that equivalent be? I did ask at the time but didn't get an answer. I know they don't discuss specific cases but I was looking for a general idea why that might happen.

It was after about 5 generic London system opening moves btw.


Much as I'd like to believe LiChess were banning 1 d4 system players I don't think that was it.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:41 pm

Hi Roger,

Sorry, I was thinking of RHP where you can play in 20 player tournaments with both colours (38 games at once)
You have 21 days for all moves. If you see a player you suspect or just do not want to play you resign.
No problem with sandbaggers as the tournament is open to all grades 500 - 2500. Great hectic fun.

Also in the great scheme of things online sandbaggers are not worth the trouble. But how about:
Why not bring in a rating ceiling. once you have reached 'say' 1500 no matter what your
grade is now - even if it is 1100 you can never ever enter an under 1500 online tournament.
They have a system working like that for OTB chess in the USA.

Hi Joseph,

"Say you want to catch 'intelligent' cheating by strong players who are occasionally resorting to an engine at critical positions."

A stealth cheat. Very hard to prove and if it's a good active player then you must come down on the side of any doubt.
Also, IMO, you must do a lot of time consuming, human investigation.

I recall 'they' wanted to ban a player who played this wonderful 'non-human.' move on about move 19 of an obscure line in the K.G.
I went back through his games and found he had the same position many months before but played a different move.
Therefore I argued, if this lad is fine tuning his repertoire, like all good players do, he has run the first game though
an engine - after the game - and it found 19.XX and he has used it the first chance he got.

The lad was not banned. Although I had no way of proving what happened you have to give all players the benefit of doubt.
(he could have remembered he lost the first game and cheated on the second, but 'could have' in this case is not proof.)

Blatant cheats are easy to catch, you need more craft with stealth cheats and any doubt then 'not guilty.'

The other problem with using online bots to catch cheats is the honest good players may suspect they are playing
a bot (and be right) and increase 100 fold the number cheat flags, then they wonder why they are not banned so keep
submitting evidence...

NickFaulks
Posts: 8452
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:28 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:41 pm
"Say you want to catch 'intelligent' cheating by strong players who are occasionally resorting to an engine at critical positions."
Using only statistical means, you can't. Get used to it.

The best hope is that they will become psychologically dependent on such assistance and use it too much.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:40 pm

Hi Nick,

I did not say that, I was answering a quote from Joseph Conlon.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7324&start=2565#p264104

I agree, it's nigh impossible or very difficult. As for becoming dependant on a computer, well there is the rub.
If a weaker player has got themselves up to say 2500 they have to maintain it by using a computer.

What Lichess etc... should take onboard is a confessed cheat (it takes one to catch one)
Maybe they can explain the why, it may be addictive, or 'I thought they are cheating so I will as well.'
I cannot think of any other reason. An ego thing?

NickFaulks
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:02 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:40 pm
I did not say that, I was answering a quote from Joseph Conlon.
Sorry, but it's easy to get confused when the quote function isn't used.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Steven DuCharme
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:51 pm
Location: West Bend,WI USA

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Steven DuCharme » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:40 pm

Just check the position for each player with the most possible moves
I float like a pawn island and sting like an ignored knight :mrgreen:

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:30 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:40 pm
If a weaker player has got themselves up to say 2500 they have to maintain it by using a computer.
It wasn't so long ago that an English FM was advertising himself [in this forum and presumably elsewhere to attract students] as having an online rating in excess of 3000. His FIDE ratings were then, and obstinately remain, in the region of 2250. I'm certainly not suggesting. and I have no reason to believe, that the FM in question was cheating, in which case it invites the inference that the platform in question was incapable of differentiating between a fairly average FM and a super-grandmaster par excellence. I've no particular insight but I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has.

Thomas Rendle
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Thomas Rendle » Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:01 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:30 am

It wasn't so long ago that an English FM was advertising himself [in this forum and presumably elsewhere to attract students] as having an online rating in excess of 3000. His FIDE ratings were then, and obstinately remain, in the region of 2250. I'm certainly not suggesting. and I have no reason to believe, that the FM in question was cheating, in which case it invites the inference that the platform in question was incapable of differentiating between a fairly average FM and a super-grandmaster par excellence. I've no particular insight but I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has.
That was on Chess24 where the ratings are more inflated than usual, especially if the rating is mostly based on old games when the field of players wasn't so strong on the site. The FM in question has a more modest rating in the 2300s on Lichess (with a high of around 2450).

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:03 pm

Thomas Rendle wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:01 am
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:30 am

It wasn't so long ago that an English FM was advertising himself [in this forum and presumably elsewhere to attract students] as having an online rating in excess of 3000. His FIDE ratings were then, and obstinately remain, in the region of 2250. I'm certainly not suggesting. and I have no reason to believe, that the FM in question was cheating, in which case it invites the inference that the platform in question was incapable of differentiating between a fairly average FM and a super-grandmaster par excellence. I've no particular insight but I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has.
That was on Chess24 where the ratings are more inflated than usual, especially if the rating is mostly based on old games when the field of players wasn't so strong on the site. The FM in question has a more modest rating in the 2300s on Lichess (with a high of around 2450).
Thanks, Thomas, explanation appreciated.

Simon Rogers
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Simon Rogers » Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:02 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:43 am
1. Media comments on Chess is the longest with over 4300 posts.
2. The English Language with over 3300 posts in the Not Chess Category.
3. Cheating in Chess.

Out of curiosity I wondered who had posted the most.

memberlist.php?mode=&sk=d&sd=d#memberlist

Roger with 19,349 is 10,000+ more than 2nd,Alex Holowczak (9085) I'm way down the list at 2479 (now 2480) I'll have to catch up.
Thanks Geoff for posting this. Perhaps you could post a regular update at the beginning of each month in the 250k posts Topic.
I noticed I joined the forum exactly a year ago today. I hope I've been a good influence.
I can't believe I've done over 1120 posts and I'm only 30 posts behind Roger L and a 100 behind Nick B and Joey S on page 1.

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:24 pm

Simon Rogers wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:02 pm
Thanks Geoff for posting this. Perhaps you could post a regular update at the beginning of each month in the 250k posts Topic.
I noticed I joined the forum exactly a year ago today. I hope I've been a good influence.
I can't believe I've done over 1120 posts and I'm only 30 posts behind Roger L and a 100 behind Nick B and Joey S on page 1.
Posting any such update would merely encourage verbal incontinence, of which there is already quite enough.

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