Cheating in chess

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:42 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:18 am
I'm actually doing my best, in my own sweet way, to say there are more important
matters
I had no idea you were interested in important matters
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm

My friend Angus - frequent visitor here - points out an example when somebody did get banned for a number of Scholars mate games ... although in this case he was winning against his 5 year old brother who didn't know any better.

https://twitter.com/angusjfrench/status ... 3365534734


So it seems that sometimes Lichess do ban for this sort of thing. Or did. Angus says this happened a "while ago". Perhaps the policy has changed since then.


It would certainly be an odd state of affairs to ban people for deliberately winning games by scholars mate but not for deliberately losing games by that method.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:51 pm

Hi Justin,

"I had no idea you were interested in important matters."

I'm plugging my book!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:06 pm

It's a piece about covid testing, but the application of Bayes's Theorem seems also relevant to the question of how many false positives are being detected by the cheat finder methods.

As a summary, the smaller the proportion of people using engine assistance/ having covid, the greater the relative proportion of false accusations/ false diagnosis.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... robability

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:14 pm

John Hodgson wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:58 pm
According to chess.com, "the rate of false positives detected by our algorithm is intentional."

Does anyone know what this rate is, and what we think this rate should be?
How can they possibly know (or even estimate) the rate of false positives?

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:18 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:06 pm
It's a piece about covid testing, but the application of Bayes's Theorem seems also relevant to the question of how many false positives are being detected by the cheat finder methods.

As a summary, the smaller the proportion of people using engine assistance/ having covid, the greater the relative proportion of false accusations/ false diagnosis.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... robability
The fundamental difference though is that in order to assess the false positive rate of covid lateral flow testing you have options, such as testing with PCR and comparing the results.

There's no reliable way for chess.com or lichess to really know what the rate of false positive of their algorithms actually is.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:08 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:18 pm

There's no reliable way for chess.com or lichess to really know what the rate of false positive of their algorithms actually is.
With a sufficiently large pool of trustworthy volunteers, they could attempt an experiment whereby they asked some volunteers to use engine assistance all the time some of them some of the time and others not at all. That would check the reliability or otherwise of their detection methods. In addition the part of their methods which uses the quality of play can be tested against pre engine historical games and contemporary correspondence games.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:23 pm

How would we be able to evaluate their results
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Ian Thompson
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:55 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:08 pm
Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:18 pm

There's no reliable way for chess.com or lichess to really know what the rate of false positive of their algorithms actually is.
With a sufficiently large pool of trustworthy volunteers, they could attempt an experiment whereby they asked some volunteers to use engine assistance all the time some of them some of the time and others not at all. That would check the reliability or otherwise of their detection methods. In addition the part of their methods which uses the quality of play can be tested against pre engine historical games and contemporary correspondence games.
JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:23 pm
How would we be able to evaluate their results
All of Roger's suggestions could be done without involving chess.com or lichess. A sufficiently large group of volunteers could do it themselves. I'm surprised somebody hasn't done it already.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:04 pm

I am missing something here - whose detection methods is this research using
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Ian Thompson
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:10 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:04 pm
I am missing something here - whose detection methods is this research using
By "without involving chess.com or lichess ", I meant without telling them you were doing the analysis on their site and of their methods.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:26 pm

Ah OK, I think I understand now. But presumably without their involvement, our only criteria are going to be who gets caught and who doesn't (and for that matter, who gets "caught" but didn't do anything wrong) but we wouldn't have any clear idea what procedures were in place and how decisions were come to.

(That's aside from, ah, various ethical issues involved.)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:09 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:37 am
Human observation of the games offers no credible explanation for the player's play.
But there is a credible explanation - he's deliberately losing.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:12 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:26 pm
... , our only criteria are going to be who gets caught and who doesn't ....
That's not quite accurate. Our criteria is going to be who gets banned and who doesn't.


Have Lichess really not had a look at Freddy and seen what he's up to? I doubt it. Much more likely is that they know (he's been 'caught') and, for whatever reason, they've concluded they're OK with stuff like this from yesterday:-

Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:14 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:09 am
Matthew Turner wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:37 am
Human observation of the games offers no credible explanation for the player's play.
But there is a credible explanation - he's deliberately losing.
Yes, but for what purpose?

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