Cheating in chess

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Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:18 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:24 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:28 pm
Angus,
Two points to note
1. The David Cordover at Chess24 has been a member since at least April 2020, so someone hasn't just registered an account to spoof him
2. The Fair Play Panel consisted of 4 potential members, so Mr,. Cordover could either have recused himself, or the Panel could have reached a majority verdict.
Why not cut through this by asking him?
From Sutovsky's Facebook, it appears that David Cordover is now clearly out in favour of Osmak with Tornelo having released all their data to the University of Texas Rio Grande Valley.
Sutovsky seems to be sticking to the line that the Fair Play Panel have made their decision (Colovic and Bejatovic are both ACP officials) and nothing will change that unless Osmak is prepared to slug it out in CAS.
I had imagined that we'd see a clever political intervention from Djorkovich and Osmak would be reinstated before the week was out. That seems less straightforward now, because it would involve a very significant break with Sutovsky, however I cannot see this going away quietly.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:29 pm

Macieja Bartlomiej, who is in charge of the chess program at UTRGV, is now claiming that only 50% of the fair play panel members were in favour of sanctioning Osmak.

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:24 am

Yulia Osmak with an hour long video (not in English) analysing her games which would be useful to compare with the data against her.
Last edited by Chris Rice on Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:31 am

Peter Doggers has a very good article summarising the positions on chess.com
https://www.chess.com/news/view/fide-wo ... ulia-osmak

David Cordover is still not pulling any punches

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:34 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:31 am
Peter Doggers has a very good article summarising the positions on chess.com
https://www.chess.com/news/view/fide-wo ... ulia-osmak

David Cordover is still not pulling any punches
Yes very comprehensive article and a real problem for Osmak as in theory she could lose her scholarship over this for a decision that seems to have been taken on the balance of probabilities rather than with any clear evidence of cheating. As you say this is not over.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:44 am

There's a certain irony in complaints of an absence of transparency and other procedural shortcomings appearing on the webpage of chess.com.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:58 am

Chris Rice wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:34 am
Matthew Turner wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:31 am
Peter Doggers has a very good article summarising the positions on chess.com
https://www.chess.com/news/view/fide-wo ... ulia-osmak

David Cordover is still not pulling any punches
Yes very comprehensive article and a real problem for Osmak as in theory she could lose her scholarship over this for a decision that seems to have been taken on the balance of probabilities rather than with any clear evidence of cheating. As you say this is not over.
There is a debate to be had about the threshold required to prove cheating, but David Cordover says he knows of "three blatantly obvious examples of false positives in FIDE events in the last four or five months". I think we can safely assume that one of the cases he is talking about Osmak. So, my reading of the situation is that he believes on the balance of probabilities Osmak is in fact innocent, rather than merely not guilty.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:16 am

Meanwhile in other cheating news
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:54 am

"Kunshan police found and destroyed 17 cheats"

They don't mess about in China.
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Paul McKeown
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:22 am

Martin Crichton wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:19 pm
Looks like GM Nick Pert and WGM Irina Bulmaga were demolished by stockfish or some other chess engine in last nights Bunratty online event in rounds 4 and 5.
...

round 4 https://www.chess.com/live/game/7581682325

round 5 https://www.chess.com/live/game/7582311767
I'm not sure that the win against the WGM would be cast iron evidence of cheating if the player were rated 2000+, as it appears to me that the WGM faced an opening gambit she were inadequately prepared for, whereupon she made an early bad choice (6... d5) after which her position looked absolutely untenable, and duly got smashed. Surely a player of your standard (170ish in old money) would expect to give their opponent a complete battering after 6... d5 and un-developing all their opponent's pieces within the first ten moves, whilst completing their own development?

Admittedly, seeing a 1600 player give such a comprehensive display does raise questions.

Seeing the game against Nick Pert, though. That really is dreadful. The 1600 played like a blithe spirit in the opening casting aside tempi as if he had not a care in the world, and then in the middle-game proceeded to batter a GM to blithereens in what can only be described as a game of two halves. A very clear example of assisted play, indeed, one can assume.

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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:08 am

I have a question for those that know something about the statistical matching methods used to compare players' moves with engines' best n moves.

Is there some allowance made for opening preparation being made in events which have moved from otb to online, particularly where long time controls have been retained?

All experienced players will check their opponent's repertoire before the game and make better informed choices as to what openings and variations of those openings they should make than if they had not prepared. So a decent club player may in the hour before the game prepare for the game and play the opening score of moves as well as a titled player would, before inevitably subsiding into their normal slightly substandard sludge of middlegame and endgame play.

However, this seems different to me from the normal way that online chess happens, where players play scads of games without any preparation at all.

Is there a risk that some of the scandals of the past year are the result of statistical methods picking up this directed preparation by experienced players, rather than actual cheating?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:13 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:22 am
Martin Crichton wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:19 pm
Looks like GM Nick Pert and WGM Irina Bulmaga were demolished by stockfish or some other chess engine in last nights Bunratty online event in rounds 4 and 5.
...

round 4 https://www.chess.com/live/game/7581682325

round 5 https://www.chess.com/live/game/7582311767
I'm not sure that the win against the WGM would be cast iron evidence of cheating if the player were rated 2000+, as it appears to me that the WGM faced an opening gambit she were inadequately prepared for, whereupon she made an early bad choice (6... d5) after which her position looked absolutely untenable, and duly got smashed. Surely a player of your standard (170ish in old money) would expect to give their opponent a complete battering after 6... d5 and un-developing all their opponent's pieces within the first ten moves, whilst completing their own development?

Admittedly, seeing a 1600 player give such a comprehensive display does raise questions.

Seeing the game against Nick Pert, though. That really is dreadful. The 1600 played like a blithe spirit in the opening casting aside tempi as if he had not a care in the world, and then in the middle-game proceeded to batter a GM to blithereens in what can only be described as a game of two halves. A very clear example of assisted play, indeed, one can assume.
All of that looks right to me, but of course the problem is that it was the same player in each instance, which makes it harder to think of these two games as two separate cases. I missed this controversy at the time - did anything come of it?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:19 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:08 am
Is there some allowance made for opening preparation being made in events which have moved from otb to online, particularly where long time controls have been retained?
They claim not to check "book" or "theory" for engine matching, but as with much of the process, there isn't much disclosure of the methods used or how rigorous a definition of book is used. The public facing analysis of chess.com cuts off "book" at a very early stage.

To my mind a smash arising out of the opening and early middle game may well shown signs of engine assistance but in the absence of evidence to the contrary could likely be preparation. It's the games showing heroic defence like the Pert example that may be the more suspect.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:25 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:08 am
I have a question for those that know something about the statistical matching methods used to compare players' moves with engines' best n moves.

Is there some allowance made for opening preparation being made in events which have moved from otb to online, particularly where long time controls have been retained?
The basic allowance for this is all built into the statistics - the fact that you've sampled a fair number of games, and been compared to known human games some of which will feature preparation themselves, makes it very unlikely that they'll mostly/all be deep preparation.

You do definitely need to be careful though. Its been mentioned as a grounds for appeal to a human panel in extreme cases.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:40 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:08 am
I have a question for those that know something about the statistical matching methods used to compare players' moves with engines' best n moves.

Is there some allowance made for opening preparation being made in events which have moved from otb to online, particularly where long time controls have been retained?

All experienced players will check their opponent's repertoire before the game and make better informed choices as to what openings and variations of those openings they should make than if they had not prepared. So a decent club player may in the hour before the game prepare for the game and play the opening score of moves as well as a titled player would, before inevitably subsiding into their normal slightly substandard sludge of middlegame and endgame play.

However, this seems different to me from the normal way that online chess happens, where players play scads of games without any preparation at all.

Is there a risk that some of the scandals of the past year are the result of statistical methods picking up this directed preparation by experienced players, rather than actual cheating?
For chess.com a ban for any titled player would have to be signed off by three GMs and one of the considerations they would be looking at is the possibility of opening preparation. That is pretty accepted practice, so high profile cases are going to have some level of 'expert' input. Obviously, there simply isn't the level of resources to ensure that all cases receive this level of scrutiny.
So could a decent club player trip the cheat detection with repeated targeted preparation, well yes, but it is very unlikely. For the platforms, they would show up as playing well, but there would be nothing else suspicious. They don't know that The user John Smith is actually John Smith graded 150, it could be that he is David Howell or Magnus Carlsen for that matter
When the Regan tests are performed then they do know that John Smith is John Smith. The test comes in two parts the initial test, which simply looks at moves matches and then the comprehensive test which produces a Z-score. Our ardent preparer is going to look bad on the initial test because they are going to have a higher than expected move match.
When the the full test is performed all theoretical moves ( as defined by moves played by 2300+ players) are removed, so things should look a lot better for John.
Of course, if John has done lots of computer analysis and expanded on existing knowledge, remembering lots of lines with all his opponent's responses then it is possible that he'll fall foul of both Regan tests, but in reality how likely is this to be the case for a decent club player?