Cheating in chess

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:49 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:44 pm
I suppose it's unkind to speculate on how arbiters are expected to have "meaningful information about the logic involved" in the decisions of Lichess and Chess.com, to name the two most obvious cases, when those platforms won't disclose that information.
I suppose the paragraph in the FIDE Handbook may have been written in the context of OTB chess, where an arbiter might have concerns about a player's absence from the board and used a Regan or similar test to establish whether there were grounds for suspicion.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:12 pm

Alistair Campbell wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:19 pm
I note Ali Mortazavi has tweeted yesterday about cheating in chess, if anyone is interested.
Yes, shows no fear and openly names the player who allegedly cheated against him in the Bunratty Online Blitz. Ali wonders what’s the point if they aren’t real consequences for cheating? He suggests that the way forward maybe two cameras operating in serious online chess . Do people think this would help? He’s right that all this cheating has muddied the waters, as to who is a genuine improver and who is a sad cheat.

It’s very hard to believe the number of middle aged players magically elevating from a career 130 level to regularly menacing 180+ players online since March 2020. Not to mention England juniors being banned in one international event, only to turn up in another a month later. Danny Gormally also endorses this idea of a second side camera, and wonders why not in serious online events like the British, they can’t be sent out in the post to players? He likens the current online chess landscape to the Wild West!

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:21 pm

Someone calling himself David Cordover has commented on Chess24. I'll reproduce the comments here, but I would just caution that I have no evidence as to whether this is, or is not, the real David Cordover

"A Fair Play process should be Fair. Currently it is not.

- The decision makers must be independent and accountable. That means their decision is subject to appeal and review.

- Opinion should not be taken as evidence.

- There must be a presumption of innocence.

- The players must be informed before and not after, so they have an opportunity to defend themselves. They must be provided with all evidence against them.

- FIDE is not a private platform, they do not have the right to secrecy. Any government judicial process must be open, transparent and accountable to the people."

and more

"From a Fair Play in Tournaments point of view Tornelo is possibly the leading platform in the world. It is the only platform that provides full power to the arbiters. Many thousands of events at all levels have taken place successfully.

Make Bad Decisions is part of life. It happens. But it shows true strength of character to admit that a bad decision was made and to learn from that mistake. -- This is what I tell players who cheat for the first time, and it applies exactly the same way to FIDE right now."

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:35 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:44 pm
"Know the existence of automated decision-making, including profiling, and, at least in those cases, meaningful information about the logic involved, as well as the significance and the envisaged consequences of such processing for the data subject" - FIDE Arbiter's Manual - see above.

I suppose it's unkind to speculate on how arbiters are expected to have "meaningful information about the logic involved" in the decisions of Lichess and Chess.com, to name the two most obvious cases, when those platforms won't disclose that information.
If FIDE's privacy policy requires them to have that information and they haven't got it, and can't get it, the conclusion is obvious - they shouldn't be using those platforms for any of their events.

Angus French
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Angus French » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:24 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:21 pm
Someone calling himself David Cordover has commented on Chess24. I'll reproduce the comments here, but I would just caution that I have no evidence as to whether this is, or is not, the real David Cordover
The comments can be found against the piece here. Given what is attributed to him, I think it might be worth Chess24 checking whether "David Cordover" is the Tornelo David Cordover.
Matthew Turner wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:21 pm
"A Fair Play process should be Fair. Currently it is not.

- The decision makers must be independent and accountable. That means their decision is subject to appeal and review.

- Opinion should not be taken as evidence.

- There must be a presumption of innocence.

- The players must be informed before and not after, so they have an opportunity to defend themselves. They must be provided with all evidence against them.

- FIDE is not a private platform, they do not have the right to secrecy. Any government judicial process must be open, transparent and accountable to the people."
All of which sounds pretty reasonable to me but if these are the comments of Tornelo's David Cordover, don't they go against the decision of the Fair Play Panel - a panel of which he was apparently a member?

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:28 pm

Angus,
Two points to note
1. The David Cordover at Chess24 has been a member since at least April 2020, so someone hasn't just registered an account to spoof him
2. The Fair Play Panel consisted of 4 potential members, so Mr,. Cordover could either have recused himself, or the Panel could have reached a majority verdict.

PeterFinn
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:09 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by PeterFinn » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:07 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:12 pm
Alistair Campbell wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:19 pm
I note Ali Mortazavi has tweeted yesterday about cheating in chess, if anyone is interested.
Yes, shows no fear and openly names the player who allegedly cheated against him in the Bunratty Online Blitz. Ali wonders what’s the point if they aren’t real consequences for cheating? He suggests that the way forward maybe two cameras operating in serious online chess . Do people think this would help? He’s right that all this cheating has muddied the waters, as to who is a genuine improver and who is a sad cheat.

It’s very hard to believe the number of middle aged players magically elevating from a career 130 level to regularly menacing 180+ players online since March 2020. Not to mention England juniors being banned in one international event, only to turn up in another a month later. Danny Gormally also endorses this idea of a second side camera, and wonders why not in serious online events like the British, they can’t be sent out in the post to players? He likens the current online chess landscape to the Wild West!
I would be very supportive of having 2 cameras for the British Online. I somewhat suspect that this wouldn't stop innocent players of being publicly accused of cheating anyway as most of those doing the public accusing didn't have access to the cameras at the last British and in some cases seemingly hadn't even looked at the games, just the very inaccurate FIDE ratings.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:23 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:12 pm
Alistair Campbell wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:19 pm
I note Ali Mortazavi has tweeted yesterday about cheating in chess, if anyone is interested.
Yes, shows no fear and openly names the player who allegedly cheated against him in the Bunratty Online Blitz. Ali wonders what’s the point if they aren’t real consequences for cheating? He suggests that the way forward maybe two cameras operating in serious online chess . Do people think this would help? He’s right that all this cheating has muddied the waters, as to who is a genuine improver and who is a sad cheat.

It’s very hard to believe the number of middle aged players magically elevating from a career 130 level to regularly menacing 180+ players online since March 2020. Not to mention England juniors being banned in one international event, only to turn up in another a month later. Danny Gormally also endorses this idea of a second side camera, and wonders why not in serious online events like the British, they can’t be sent out in the post to players? He likens the current online chess landscape to the Wild West!
A fully understandable sentiment but I don't know.

Fundamentally, if you genuinely want to do 'serious' online chess then the organisers need to fully control the computer the people are playing on and the environment they're playing in. Take them out into somewhere with an arbiter and equipment. Like the old telegraph chess set ups I suppose. That's a genuine technical obstacle to cheating.

Once Covid has blown through and its possible to move people about more, I'd imagine that this will become the basic norm when it matters enough.

A second camera simply doesn't give you much vs a remotely committed cheat. In the meantime you'd be putting non trivial technical barriers in the way of people who do want to participate & cost.

NickFaulks
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:24 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:28 pm
Angus,
Two points to note
1. The David Cordover at Chess24 has been a member since at least April 2020, so someone hasn't just registered an account to spoof him
2. The Fair Play Panel consisted of 4 potential members, so Mr,. Cordover could either have recused himself, or the Panel could have reached a majority verdict.
Why not cut through this by asking him?
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Matt Bridgeman
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:24 pm

PeterFinn wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:07 pm
Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:12 pm
Alistair Campbell wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:19 pm
I note Ali Mortazavi has tweeted yesterday about cheating in chess, if anyone is interested.
Yes, shows no fear and openly names the player who allegedly cheated against him in the Bunratty Online Blitz. Ali wonders what’s the point if they aren’t real consequences for cheating? He suggests that the way forward maybe two cameras operating in serious online chess . Do people think this would help? He’s right that all this cheating has muddied the waters, as to who is a genuine improver and who is a sad cheat.

It’s very hard to believe the number of middle aged players magically elevating from a career 130 level to regularly menacing 180+ players online since March 2020. Not to mention England juniors being banned in one international event, only to turn up in another a month later. Danny Gormally also endorses this idea of a second side camera, and wonders why not in serious online events like the British, they can’t be sent out in the post to players? He likens the current online chess landscape to the Wild West!
I would be very supportive of having 2 cameras for the British Online. I somewhat suspect that this wouldn't stop innocent players of being publicly accused of cheating anyway as most of those doing the public accusing didn't have access to the cameras at the last British and in some cases seemingly hadn't even looked at the games, just the very inaccurate FIDE ratings.
You are right for sure. Certainly at least one camera in those qualifying events for the British Online must be brought in next time, as a lot of those results were just silly to put it mildly! Do you still feel like you’re playing as well post-British Peter, or did you peak there? Do you feel like you’re bumping into more potential cheats lately?

Matthew Turner
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:48 pm

I have only just realised how farcical the Universities Championships situation is
The event is presented by "University of Texas Rio Grande Valley"

Lulija Osmak is from University of Texas Rio Grande Valley.

All her results have been set up losses, but her opponent's results are set to draws, all bar Julia Antolak whose result is set to a win. That is enough for Antolak to win the championship. A draw would have left her tied for first place with Anna Sargsyan, where she would presumably have lost out on tiebreak, having lost their individual game.

Julia Antolak is from, you guessed it, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley.

PeterFinn
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:09 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by PeterFinn » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:49 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:24 pm
PeterFinn wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:07 pm
Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:12 pm


Yes, shows no fear and openly names the player who allegedly cheated against him in the Bunratty Online Blitz. Ali wonders what’s the point if they aren’t real consequences for cheating? He suggests that the way forward maybe two cameras operating in serious online chess . Do people think this would help? He’s right that all this cheating has muddied the waters, as to who is a genuine improver and who is a sad cheat.

It’s very hard to believe the number of middle aged players magically elevating from a career 130 level to regularly menacing 180+ players online since March 2020. Not to mention England juniors being banned in one international event, only to turn up in another a month later. Danny Gormally also endorses this idea of a second side camera, and wonders why not in serious online events like the British, they can’t be sent out in the post to players? He likens the current online chess landscape to the Wild West!
I would be very supportive of having 2 cameras for the British Online. I somewhat suspect that this wouldn't stop innocent players of being publicly accused of cheating anyway as most of those doing the public accusing didn't have access to the cameras at the last British and in some cases seemingly hadn't even looked at the games, just the very inaccurate FIDE ratings.
You are right for sure. Certainly at least one camera in those qualifying events for the British Online must be brought in next time, as a lot of those results were just silly to put it mildly! Do you still feel like you’re playing as well post-British Peter, or did you peak there? Do you feel like you’re bumping into more potential cheats lately?
I still think I'm playing just as well but I certainly had some luck at the British that I won't always get. I seemingly have a problem playing for a win as black against lower rated players which wasn't a problem that got shown up at the British also. In general I measure my progress by my Lichess ratings as they at least get regularly updated and both my blitz and rapid ratings are 50 points higher than they were at the British. I occasionally run into people cheating against me online but probably not as often as you'd expect given the number of games I play.

NickFaulks
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:09 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:48 pm
I have only just realised how farcical the Universities Championships situation is
Yes all true, but I can't believe that anyone at UTRGV is remotely happy about any of this.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:16 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:09 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:48 pm
I have only just realised how farcical the Universities Championships situation is
Yes all true, but I can't believe that anyone at UTRGV is remotely happy about any of this.
Agreed, it is just embarrassing for FIDE, they really need to get a grip on the situation without delay.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:28 pm

"All her results have been set up losses, but her opponent's results are set to draws, all bar Julia Antolak whose result is set to a win. That is enough for Antolak to win the championship. A draw would have left her tied for first place with Anna Sargsyan, where she would presumably have lost out on tiebreak, having lost their individual game.

Julia Antolak is from, you guessed it, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley."

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised at all.