Cheating in chess

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:58 am

Thomas Rendle wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:27 am
It means they're doing their best to balance anti-cheating with not accusing everyone who plays good chess. Titled players create news accounts all the time that don't get flagged up for cheating. You don't get an account marked for just making good moves.

This doesn't mean there can't be a conversation about false positives, why they occur and can what steps be taken to avoid or minimalise them.

I see no reason or evidence to think they are banning/marking accounts just because they play one or two good games.
Who and what are you arguing with here
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Thomas Rendle
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Thomas Rendle » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:41 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:14 pm
Sure, but doesn't it strike you as a bit of a premature marking?
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:17 am
Aren't lichess a bit notorious for being quick off the mark? The mathematics of coincidence does require a reasonable amount of independent evidence.

Strong players select good moves. Engines select good moves. It doesn't infer that there is collusion with limited evidence.
The above is what I was trying to answer. A better question might be 'why bother', but it would be nice if we *could* rely on the site's anti-cheating and fairplay mechanisms. This would limit some of the more onerous conditions for online events (e.g. no electronic devices or other people in the room) that have caused problems elsewhere. What are you seeking to achieve?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:01 am

Well I guess when I say that something looks strange to me, I am seeking to achieve understanding.
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Joey Stewart
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:52 am

I have opened up many new accounts, gone from 1200-2200 in a day and never ever had any issues with being banned or accused so there is obviously more to it then the sites simply deciding a handful of won games are sufficient to convict.
Flagging users up that fast would almost indicate to me that they are repeat offenders who have already been banned from the site on other accounts and have been detected trying to rejoin.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John McKenna » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:59 am

Joey Stewart wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:52 am
I have opened up many new accounts, gone from 1200-2200 in a day and never ever had any issues with being banned or accused so there is obviously more to it then the sites simply deciding a handful of won games are sufficient to convict.
Flagging users up that fast would almost indicate to me that they are repeat offenders who have already been banned from the site on other accounts and have been detected trying to rejoin.
Well said, and well played! An insightful and honest contribution to the debate.

All the cross-examination conducted thus far in this thread, and others of a similar nature, have eeked out precious little understanding of how the big platforms actually operate internally at the nuts-and-bolts level in regard to the subject under discussion.

Titled players such as Tom R & Matt T are doing their best to explain the kind of thing that may be going on behind the scenes but unless they are involved in the day-to-day procedures, in a hands-on capacity, and are prepared to say so and spill the beans then they will never be able to satisfy those seeking a full disclosure of how exactly the big platforms operate their fair-play policies.

There's almost inevitable price to pay - in terms of a loss of transparency - when you go from attending and playing intermittent over-the-board chess events of any description, in person, to having the benefit an instant cornucopia of the online versions of them available on the 'smart phone' in your pocket.

Those who are now making use of them in the absence of otb events enter into a captive market, and as such cannot effectively demand more transparency nor force it upon the providers, since the latter set the terms and conditions that people agree to when they create accounts.

The biggest online chess platforms should be trying to keep track of the real world identities of those who create more than one account on each of their platforms and keep a record of the users performance and not only in terms of their playing stats (as they do) but also of their performance when it comes to the fair-play policies.

Ideally each player could be privately provided with a personal fair-play credit score that they could try to improve to avoid being banned, though I doubt that will happen any time soon.

Jog on...

Neil Graham
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Neil Graham » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:44 pm

I am pursuing a matter at the moment where a Lichess account is notated "This account is closed".

I asked whether they could confirm whether the account was closed by Lichess and for what reason.

The reply I received was We won't say, sorry. It is our recommendation that you treat every closed account as a de-facto cheating account.

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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:34 pm

Justin,
Concerning Maximouxz's flagging, I would suggest that one possibility was that his last rated game was against himself. There are a lot of 'maximo's registered on Lichess

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:58 pm

Oh that's plausible.

Games like this just look real to me though.
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Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:02 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:58 pm
Oh that's plausible.

Games like this just look real to me though.
Perhaps you could volunteer an explanation for how the game ended then : :roll:

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:39 pm

Fair point, I didn't play through to the end and obviously should have! (Though even so, that's a weird thing rather than a tell in itself, I've had people resign games against me on a number of occasions when they shouldn't have, and I'm not talking about positions where people might have thought themselves lost. Maybe they were just bored and wanted to start another game, who knows.)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:50 pm

Justin
Lets try you on something else then, compared to Black White has a flat graph in terms of move times. If you click on the 'minipeaks' these all coincide with 'mistakes' - what are your thoughts on that?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:03 pm

It's interesting (though is it quite right? I'm looking at the last three minipeaks for instance) but I wouldn't know what conclusions, however provisional, to draw from that.
"Do you play chess?"
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Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:15 pm

Justin,
Sorry, you are right, it is the 3 minipeaks on the left that all coincide with mistakes.
The 3 minipeaks on the right feature a move where the queen is attacked and two checks where White's move is pretty obvious. Strange that those moves would take the longest to work out?
What do you think?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:33 pm

I'm not sure there's anything much to see there, is there? I might very well take ten seconds to play 29 Qe3 for instance.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:44 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:33 pm
I'm not sure there's anything much to see there, is there? I might very well take ten seconds to play 29 Qe3 for instance.
The time control is 9 minutes with an 8 second increment, for moves 4 - 16 the longest think for White is 7.8 seconds. Do you think you would do that? I think I'd need a bit longer.

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