NCCU and the MCF

[Andrew Zigmond]

Andrew - Unfortunately there is little point in me contacting the gentleman as I have no official capacity within the NCCU or the YCA. I like your suggestion though of Yorkshire championing the MCF's application. Indeed I thought that this is what we had mandated Ihor to do at the last YCA meeting.

Andrew you have standing within both organisations as you've taken on a couple of the YCA county teams and also ran the Pennine Cup last season; obviously the crux of the matter is that you won't do so until the NCCU/ MCF issue is resolved. The other Lancashire representative is copied to the email, I assume Mr Tennant-Smith would be if he had an email address.

I think he does need to be asked whether a principle that may or may not have been right in 1975 should be allowed to prevent progress in other areas in 2013.

[Roger de Coverly]

I think he does need to be asked whether a principle that may or may not have been right in 1975 should be allowed to prevent progress in other areas in 2013.

Looking from outside, the principle appeared to be that for players born, living or members of clubs in in ceremonial Lancashire, that they "belonged" to the Lancashire county team in perpetuity. This is notwithstanding the creation of Merseyside as a county team.

So it appears to have been a personal antipathy between Lancashire and Greater Manchester officials. The threats of legal action made it impossible for the BCF, the magazines of the time, or the wider chess public to adjudicate on the merits of the case.

[Andrew Zigmond]

The threats of legal action made it impossible for the BCF, the magazines of the time, or the wider chess public to adjudicate on the merits of the case.

Paul Buswell noted upthread that when the bluff of the litigant was called, nothing happened. I for one think it's time that Mr Tennant-Smith was told he cannot hold the NCCU to ransom.

[Neil Graham]

When all this started I was twenty four, I now travel around with my free bus pass.

[MartinCarpenter]

Fascinating how stubborn people can be, isn't it? At least we don't kill each other over it

You know, never mind the NCCU, objectively it would be very reasonable to have Manchester in the Yorkshire league. They're closer to many of the cities involved, around the same size, than Hull and I think only Hull <-> Manchester would need a neutral venue. Much more chess than you'd ever get from NCCU county matches.

One obvious 'small' issue but hey Saddleworth is in historic Yorkshire so....

If anyone needs inspiration for an ultimate resolution to the NCCU, here's our bridge cousins - http://www.manchesterbridge.org.uk/NBL/index.html. Quite new but doing quite well for itself it seems. Manchester are really rather good at bridge

[Alan Walton]

The Saddleworth used in be in Yorkshire is my tenuous link for playing for Yorkshire (apart from playing for Bradford), for the first 2 years of my life I live in Saddleworth and I now only live in Lees which actually has a place called County End in it, which is the historic Lancs/Yorks border

If you take the old boundary into account 3Cs playing venue was in Yorkshire for nearly 10 years, and for the last 5 years in is only 1/4 of a mile away from the old border

[John Reyes]

What a load of tripe. Nothing I have ever heard or read on this ridiculous subject has ever given me the slightest glimmer of a belief that there is intelligent life in Lancashire. Can anyone in the NCCU give any justification that thirty years after the grandparents were upset by the arrival of a bastard child, that that child should still be shunned by the rest of the family?

Morons.



Sorry if this comes across a bit heavy, but get an effing grip, someone, please.

There are plenty of people who've been calling for this whole sorry affair between Gtr Manchester and NCCU to be laid to rest None more so than members of the MCF/Gtr Manchester themselves. However, some NCCU members in particular Lancashire still have a reluctance to deal with the situation in a mature way especially when it comes to Greater Manchester splitting from the rest of Lancashire, when many many years ago it formed it's own chess playing county. Given the saturation of players it had it's own right to...!

Anyway for me it's like the Northern Ireland situation. Hopefully the older people who still bear the grudges will pass on or move away from places of power and maybe a new generation of people might come in and act a bit more civilised again. We can only live and hope!

There is Some People in the Lancashire rank, that don't see manchester as a place and see manchester as a place that the M60 go around!!

here is what Wikipedia said about Manchester
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Manchester

[Alan Burke]

If Mr Tennant-Smith is so adamant about maintaining the original County boundaries for the purposes of chess administration then surely he should be advocating that some players in his "Lancashire" area are actually eligible for Cheshire and Yorkshire, as per the following information about the original formation of Lancashire ...

The county was established in 1182 and later than many other counties. In the Domesday Book, its lands between the Ribble and the Mersey were known as "Inter Ripam et Mersam" and were included in the returns for Cheshire. It is also claimed that the territory to the north formed, at that time, part of the West Riding of Yorkshire."

So, it appears that Mr. Tennant-Smith wants to be Lancastrian because he has a connection with the Red Rose county, even though the area originally belonged to elsewhere, yet does not want those now in Greater Manchester to have the same affinity for their county of birth or location.

[MartinCarpenter]

You want to be careful with going too far back or you'll find that Manchester doesn't even exist

Thinking about the NNCU rationally, is there any chance of - for the county competitions if not organisation - Merseyside folding back into Lancashire? They've not fielded a team for a long time now so its a logical enough thing to look at. The same sort of question with Cleveland in some ways.

[Alex Holowczak]

Deviation: On the issue of where places are...

I was in Witney on Sunday, and I saw someone listed as being from Abingdon. "Oh, they're travelling from Berkshire", I said...

[Kevin Thurlow]

"I was in Witney on Sunday, and I saw someone listed as being from Abingdon. "Oh, they're travelling from Berkshire", I said... "

Quite reasonable as Abingdon was in Berkshire until 1974, until all those ghastly changes took place. Humberside? what's wrong with East Riding of Yorkshire, and Lincolnshire?

[Alex Holowczak]

"I was in Witney on Sunday, and I saw someone listed as being from Abingdon. "Oh, they're travelling from Berkshire", I said... "

Quite reasonable as Abingdon was in Berkshire until 1974, until all those ghastly changes took place. Humberside? what's wrong with East Riding of Yorkshire, and Lincolnshire?

I knew that Abingdon was the historic county town of Berkshire, but not being from the area, I didn't know the borders had changed so much.

I still use Oldbury, Worcestershire as my address, rather than Oldbury, West Midlands.

[Mick Norris]

Hopefully this is the final leg of the journey for Manchester joining the NCCU. If not, what would stop Manchester and all of the other northern counties simply leaving the NCCU and forming a new union?

This was pointed out by Martin Regan in 2007 in the context of stopping the NCCU constitution being used by Lancs to veto the majority (unanimous?) view of the other counties

[Andrew Zigmond]

I've just read the NCCU consitution which unfortunately doesn't say anything about the circumstances in which the Union can be dissolved or indeed how existing CCAs (County Chess Associations) can leave. Dissolution followed by reconstitution would be the preferred option as the ECF would need to recognise any new body over and above a rump NCCU consisting of Lancashire alone which could be subject to legal challenge.

I will certainly support this solution within Yorkshire if need be. I also think that those in favour of resolving this for once and for all (ie anybody with common sense) need to start taking a `see you in court` attitude.

[Roger de Coverly]

I also think that those in favour of resolving this for once and for all (ie anybody with common sense) need to start taking a `see you in court` attitude.

I would presume that the GMCA objective is to ranked alongside Merseyside and Cleveland as far as rights to enter teams in NCCU county competitions are concerned, attend meetings etc..

There appear to be some in Lancashire who have a fundamental objection to this. I don't think in thirty eight years and counting, they have have stated what exactly this is in a forum where their objection could be debated by those with little knowledge of the presumed issues.