English Chess Forum

Recently I've been having some sightly better games against black with the advance variation (I say "better" because it's such an anti chess position that a negative opponent will often find ways to squeeze any life out of the game) but the one scummy system I've not found an answer to and has restored my belief that humanity is doomed as a species goes something like this.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5

Now I'm sure that every e4 player hates this opening, anyone who plays it and all that it stands for so any communal attempts to tear this system down will surely be nothing but positive for the entire chess community.

Some lines of the Caro-Kann Advance can maybe be considered "anti-chess" but others are amongst the wildest and most complex known to opening theory (notably those involving an early g4/h4 by White)

Unfortunately can't recall exactly where, but definitely recall that a certain R J Fischer once said something along the lines of the QGD Exchange being the most "anti-chess" opening there is.

As they say, discuss.

Joey Stewart wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:54 pm

Recently I've been having some sightly better games against black with the advance variation (I say "better" because it's such an anti chess position that a negative opponent will often find ways to squeeze any life out of the game) but the one scummy system I've not found an answer to and has restored my belief that humanity is doomed as a species goes something like this.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5

Now I'm sure that every e4 player hates this opening, anyone who plays it and all that it stands for so any communal attempts to tear this system down will surely be nothing but positive for the entire chess community.

It doesn’t exactly tear it down but I find 4. dxc5 followed by 5.a3 usually works OK for me.

I think the Caro nowadays is considered far from anti-chess. Compare it to facing the Berlin, Petroff etc There's also no easy way out for white, no symmetrical exchange variation etc so plenty of play in all the variations.

It reminds me of Mourinho complaining about opponents 'parking the bus' or a mixed martial arts striker complaining about boring wrestlers who just hold them down. If you can't gety past the bus, or get up off the floor - it's on you. Blaming your failure to achieve your goal on the opponent is anti-accountability.

As Lawrence pointed out, it's also just plain wrong. Giri mentioned on his French Defence Chessable course that compared to the enormous Caro-Kann opening, the French is very small and easy to learn. There are numerous approaches against the Caro, and there are many ways to reach complicated, double-edged positions. Being unable to find them, is simply due to not looking hard enough.

On the surface, it looks as if Black is losing a tempo by moving the c-pawn twice, but I have had difficulty with this line as White, especially when Black captures the pawn on b2 with his queen.

Matt Fletcher wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:48 pm

It doesn’t exactly tear it down but I find 4. dxc5 followed by 5.a3 usually works OK for me.

Do many of these games go

4...Sc6 5.a3 Se5: 6.b4 g6 7.Lb5+ Ld7 by any chance?

John Upham wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:09 am

Matt Fletcher wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:48 pm

It doesn’t exactly tear it down but I find 4. dxc5 followed by 5.a3 usually works OK for me.

Do many of these games go

4...Sc6 5.a3 Se5: 6.b4 g6 7.Lb5+ Ld7 by any chance?

Yes, that sort of thing.

Joey Stewart wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:54 pm

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5

I've won two games against this in a very cheap manner.

You continue 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. dxc5 e6 6. c3 and now 6. .. Bxc5 is a serious mistake because of 7. Qa4 check. Other move orders are possible.

LawrenceCooper wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:30 am

I think the Caro nowadays is considered far from anti-chess. Compare it to facing the Berlin, Petroff etc There's also no easy way out for white, no symmetrical exchange variation etc so plenty of play in all the variations.

Well surely there is something like that (ie 3 ed5 cd5 4 some move other than c4) but even that can become quite exciting.

Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:11 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:30 am

I think the Caro nowadays is considered far from anti-chess. Compare it to facing the Berlin, Petroff etc There's also no easy way out for white, no symmetrical exchange variation etc so plenty of play in all the variations.

Well surely there is something like that (ie 3 ed5 cd5 4 some move other than c4) but even that can become quite exciting.

But that is not symmetrical.

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:15 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:11 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:30 am

I think the Caro nowadays is considered far from anti-chess. Compare it to facing the Berlin, Petroff etc There's also no easy way out for white, no symmetrical exchange variation etc so plenty of play in all the variations.

Well surely there is something like that (ie 3 ed5 cd5 4 some move other than c4) but even that can become quite exciting.

But that is not symmetrical.

Exactly. Potential for a minority attack for black on the queenside and white to use their space on the kingside. Even the French exchange can be livened up by opposite side castling to be fair.

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:15 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:11 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:30 am

I think the Caro nowadays is considered far from anti-chess. Compare it to facing the Berlin, Petroff etc There's also no easy way out for white, no symmetrical exchange variation etc so plenty of play in all the variations.

Well surely there is something like that (ie 3 ed5 cd5 4 some move other than c4) but even that can become quite exciting.

But that is not symmetrical.

Which is why I said "something like that" (the notorious QGD - as opposed to Slav - exchange variation isn't symmetrical either)

Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:02 pm

Which is why I said "something like that" (the notorious QGD - as opposed to Slav - exchange variation isn't symmetrical either)

Like the idea of the "Notorious Q.G.D.". Sounds like the name of a (chess?) rap artist.