Transgender chess players

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Tim Spanton
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Tim Spanton » Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:09 am

Ian Jamieson wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:42 pm
Richard Bates wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:30 pm
The existence of women’s titles does not harm men in any way (in fact, they do the opposite - for the reason you give - more titles players). So the only purpose for getting rid of them IMO would be if there was an established consensus (led by women I might add) that their existence harms women and their chess development. I think such arguments are tenuous at best. And no woman is compelled to accept women’s titles or set them as the limit of their ambition. Maybe you might think that they create an image of inferiority which might inadvertently add to to problems of sexism. But again, I believe that is a case and argument that should be led by women if they desire.
I agree entirely
Imagine if there had never been separate titles for women - just one set of titles regardless of gender.
Then Imagine a person or persons came along and said: "Women are just as good at chess as men, but they should have separate titles requiring lesser performances."
Such a suggestion would be laughed at and ridiculed, but that is the status quo we have and which apparently reasonable people are happy to defend.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:56 am

Tim Spanton wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:09 am
Imagine if there had never been separate titles for women - just one set of titles regardless of gender.
Then Imagine a person or persons came along and said: "Women are just as good at chess as men, but they should have separate titles requiring lesser performances."
Such a suggestion would be laughed at and ridiculed, but that is the status quo we have and which apparently reasonable people are happy to defend.
I'm struggling to follow the logic of this but as far as I'm aware the FIDE titles of GM, IM and WM (now known as WIM) were introduced in 1950.

As someone who does a fair bit of organising including providing opportunities to female players I feel women's titles are of value. I also find that listening to the views of female players to be more useful than being guided by what men tell women they should be doing. I am happy to leave it to others to judge if that is a reasonable or unreasonable view.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:15 am

ECF statement reacting to FIDE policy: https://twitter.com/ecfchess/status/1693136251887460570

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:20 am

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:56 am
I'm struggling to follow the logic of this but as far as I'm aware the FIDE titles of GM, IM and WM (now known as WIM) were introduced in 1950.
I think the speculation is what would have happened had FIDE not seen a need to introduce a separate WM title in 1950. Perhaps if Vera Menchik had still been alive and thus in line for the historic award of GM or IM.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:46 am

" I also find that listening to the views of female players to be more useful than being guided by what men tell women they should be doing."

Quite right. Not all female players are in favour of the female playing titles though.

Martin Crichton
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Martin Crichton » Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:52 am

As a designer I think the obvious solution regarding the issue of toilets in all sports in all possible scenarios would be to have a 3rd classification of toilet...male...female....other

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Member of "the strongest amateur chess club in London" (Cavendish)

my views are not representative of any clubs or organisations.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:19 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:46 am
" I also find that listening to the views of female players to be more useful than being guided by what men tell women they should be doing."

Quite right. Not all female players are in favour of the female playing titles though.
Yes, but the large majority are (same with women only tournaments) even though some of the female opponents are highly vociferous.

A bit hazy about the details here, but pretty sure surveys of women players have been conducted which confirm this.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Ian Thompson
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Aug 20, 2023 12:04 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:19 am
Yes, but the large majority are [in favour of female titles] (same with women only tournaments) even though some of the female opponents are highly vociferous.
That's hardly surprising when having a female title gets women benefits that male players of the same standard don't get.

Tim Spanton
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Tim Spanton » Sun Aug 20, 2023 12:44 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:56 am
Tim Spanton wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:09 am
Imagine if there had never been separate titles for women - just one set of titles regardless of gender.
Then Imagine a person or persons came along and said: "Women are just as good at chess as men, but they should have separate titles requiring lesser performances."
Such a suggestion would be laughed at and ridiculed, but that is the status quo we have and which apparently reasonable people are happy to defend.
I'm struggling to follow the logic of this but as far as I'm aware the FIDE titles of GM, IM and WM (now known as WIM) were introduced in 1950.

As someone who does a fair bit of organising including providing opportunities to female players I feel women's titles are of value. I also find that listening to the views of female players to be more useful than being guided by what men tell women they should be doing. I am happy to leave it to others to judge if that is a reasonable or unreasonable view.
The logic is straightforward. Either women players are inferior and so deserve inferior titles, or they are equally good and deserve not to be patronised by largely male administrators awarding them inferior titles.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Aug 20, 2023 12:56 pm

Tim Spanton wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 12:44 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:56 am
Tim Spanton wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:09 am
Imagine if there had never been separate titles for women - just one set of titles regardless of gender.
Then Imagine a person or persons came along and said: "Women are just as good at chess as men, but they should have separate titles requiring lesser performances."
Such a suggestion would be laughed at and ridiculed, but that is the status quo we have and which apparently reasonable people are happy to defend.
I'm struggling to follow the logic of this but as far as I'm aware the FIDE titles of GM, IM and WM (now known as WIM) were introduced in 1950.

As someone who does a fair bit of organising including providing opportunities to female players I feel women's titles are of value. I also find that listening to the views of female players to be more useful than being guided by what men tell women they should be doing. I am happy to leave it to others to judge if that is a reasonable or unreasonable view.
The logic is straightforward. Either women players are inferior and so deserve inferior titles, or they are equally good and deserve not to be patronised by largely male administrators awarding them inferior titles.
That does make more sense than your original post, thanks for clarifying.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Chris Goodall » Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:09 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:56 am
I also find that listening to the views of female players to be more useful than being guided by what men tell women they should be doing. I am happy to leave it to others to judge if that is a reasonable or unreasonable view.
Hurrah! Blessed art thou among women. Unless the female players decide they don't want to let trans women into their competitions, like the Pennsylvania swim team did. Obviously we wouldn't listen to those views.
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Djuna Tree
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Djuna Tree » Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:52 pm

Tim Spanton wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 7:09 am
The logic is straightforward. Either women players are inferior and so deserve inferior titles, or they are equally good and deserve not to be patronised by largely male administrators awarding them inferior titles.
I think the truth is a little more complicated than this. Women's titles were introduced at various times from 1950 ("Woman Masters" now known as WIMs), to the 1970s (WGM, WFM), to 2002 (WCM). In the 1950s and 1970s, it is clear that women were not reliably permitted to attend what were then men's tournaments, and so opportunities for women to gain the ranking points required for GM or IM were limited. Indeed as late as 1986 FIDE increased the ratings of all female players (except Susan Polgár) by 100 in an attempt to correct for the fact that no other women played in men's tournaments. We know that Polgár qualified for the 1987 men's world championship interzonal tournament but was blocked from playing due to her gender. She became the first female grandmaster in 1991. [Edit: the third, and first to do so by fulfilling the same norm requirements as male grandmasters.]

Women's titles are not a comfortable thing for us to be living with for the reasons you have pointed out, but they bring benefits such as the recognition of female players' achievements and the promotion of women's chess. There are women's national champions who can claim the title WCM well below the rating requirement. And still today, there are elite female players who prefer to play mainly women's chess, with the prospect of winning championships that brings. My personal view is that women's tournaments at club level are a useful tool for encouraging participation and improving community, and I am glad to recognise a WCM or WFM's achievements as significant. What I would prefer is to play open tournaments with a good gender balance, but it happens rarely -- the summer tournament at Battersea in which we both participated being a sign of progress at 23% female participation.

There will be a time when consensus among female players shifts regarding the usefulness of women's titles. I don't think we have reached that point yet, with only forty female grandmasters (of whom thirty-two are active) and as of 2020, a worldwide female participation rate of just 12%. The 2020 study by Wei Ji Ma suggests that population size can account for much of the rating discrepancy when considering the most elite male and female players only. There have occasionally been players such as Menchik and the Polgárs capable of beating the best players in the world in their eras, and I believe strongly that increasing participation will help us address the unfortunate present reality both statistically and in terms of conduct. Until then, we aren't ready to abandon the tools that are helping us make progress.
Last edited by Djuna Tree on Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:04 pm

Djuna Tree wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:52 pm
{Polgar} became the first female grandmaster in 1991.
The third, actually - Gaprindashvili and Chiburdanidze were the first two.

Djuna Tree
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Djuna Tree » Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:09 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:04 pm
Djuna Tree wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:52 pm
{Polgar} became the first female grandmaster in 1991.
The third, actually - Gaprindashvili and Chiburdanidze were the first two.
I beg your pardon Jack -- my source had this wrong. I think my confusion stems from the fact that Polgár was the first to do so by fulfilling the same norm requirements as male grandmasters, but you are right that Gaprindashvili and Chiburdanidze were awarded GM titles by FIDE.

Tim Spanton
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Re: Transgender chess players

Post by Tim Spanton » Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:24 pm

We know that Polgár qualified for the 1987 men's world championship interzonal tournament but was blocked from playing due to her gender.
Do we? According to Wikipedia, Judit was the first woman to qualify for an interzonal, and that was in 1993: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r

Edited to correct 'women' to 'woman'
Last edited by Tim Spanton on Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.