Rook Vs Rook + Knight
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Rook Vs Rook + Knight
I always heard this ending dismissed as not being worth bothering with learning as it is a trivial draw, but in recent weeks I have had to defend it a few times in blitz and lost every one so obviously it's nowhere near as straightforward a draw as people like to make out.
I get that you should try and keep your king from being pushed to the edge of the board but beyond that is there any particular method to holding the defence once you do get forced there (i.e. are you needing to have your rook controlling the ranks or the files).
I get that you should try and keep your king from being pushed to the edge of the board but beyond that is there any particular method to holding the defence once you do get forced there (i.e. are you needing to have your rook controlling the ranks or the files).
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
Draw. But you have to be careful: I recall Karpov winning one of these endings against a careless opponent.
Nothing like as difficult as with a bishop. Which only goes to enforce the general rule, that knights are weaker than bishops.
Which gets me thinking about the Ramirez comment about Q & N v Q&B. Well, he knows more about chess than me, but I also recall another Karpov ending which he won, where the only difference was the N v B.
To be clear: this second Karpov ending went against the general rule (because of the queens).
Nothing like as difficult as with a bishop. Which only goes to enforce the general rule, that knights are weaker than bishops.
Which gets me thinking about the Ramirez comment about Q & N v Q&B. Well, he knows more about chess than me, but I also recall another Karpov ending which he won, where the only difference was the N v B.
To be clear: this second Karpov ending went against the general rule (because of the queens).
Last edited by Nick Ivell on Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
It's very hard for the R+N to make progress if you pin the knight.
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
I have drawn the weaker side of this, in Prague some years ago. As I recall it was quite a favourable starting position (as it were) and my king never even had to go to the edge of the board.
"Do you play chess?"
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
The Karpov win - I wish I could be more precise - was from a favourable starting position.
But in general, the draw should not be difficult.
But in general, the draw should not be difficult.
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
Like Joey I thought this was a routine draw. Some old books suggest this (I remembered 'just keep the knight pinned and stay away from the edge').
The only time I played the weaker side I lost, but I still didn't appreciate the subtleties. Chessbase India did a video which gives an idea of the complications ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tsq4BNH0P2E&t=454s ) but there might be clearer explanations elsewhere. Think this one shows Judit Polgar's loss to Kasparov and Karjakin losing (in time pressure).
Keep meaning to work through this properly and an endgame text, but I keep finding something else to do that is more important ...
The only time I played the weaker side I lost, but I still didn't appreciate the subtleties. Chessbase India did a video which gives an idea of the complications ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tsq4BNH0P2E&t=454s ) but there might be clearer explanations elsewhere. Think this one shows Judit Polgar's loss to Kasparov and Karjakin losing (in time pressure).
Keep meaning to work through this properly and an endgame text, but I keep finding something else to do that is more important ...
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
This one?Nick Ivell wrote: ↑Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:21 pm
The Karpov win - I wish I could be more precise - was from a favourable starting position.
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
The draw is not quite so routine. As Tartakower said, the blunders are all there, just waiting to be made.
A routine draw is something like K & R v K & R, where you have to make a massive blunder to lose (fall into a skewer or mate).
A routine draw is something like K & R v K & R, where you have to make a massive blunder to lose (fall into a skewer or mate).
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
Off subject but the time stamp is an hour ahead for these posts.
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
That's the one! Magnus avant la lettre. Black must have felt he was never going to lose this.
It is however noteworthy that the king and knight started a long way apart; never a good look.
It is however noteworthy that the king and knight started a long way apart; never a good look.
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
Though the above ending is R v N - the OP was actually referring to RN v R.
I definitely recall Gazza winning *that* one against Judit Polgar once?
(indeed, that one has been referred to above)
I definitely recall Gazza winning *that* one against Judit Polgar once?
(indeed, that one has been referred to above)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
The Carlsen trap in R+N v R:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1604450
Kasparov v Polgar:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070866
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1604450
Kasparov v Polgar:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070866
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
Sorry, I definitely recall a Karpov win that was RN v R. R v N is a different kettle of fish, and harder for the defender.
I remember doing some work with the late Danny Kopec on R v N, for the purposes of his postgrad AI studies.
I remember doing some work with the late Danny Kopec on R v N, for the purposes of his postgrad AI studies.
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
Comfortably drawn here
Last edited by JustinHorton on Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Rook Vs Rook + Knight
you simply put the rook the other end of the board from the king and keep checking the opponents king with it i think avoiding the corners with your king