ECF Bans Russians

[JustinHorton]

I don't agree that this action of the British Chess Problem Society is "deplorable and absurd". On the contrary, I congratulate them. Every little helps.

Every little what? Every little petty persecution of people for their nationality?

Ideally, we want the people of Russia to see that they need to replace Putin with someone who can get on with the West.

Ideally we want Putin to withdraw his troops from Ukraine. It is absolutely none of our damned business "to replace" him "with someone who can get on with the West".

As has been noted in other posts, a South African would have needed to affiliate to another Federation in order to play in a FIDE rated event.

It's a fair observation, but am I not right in thinking that this is because FIDE (after 1972? 1974?) derecognised the South African federation, effectively there wasn't one for international purposes. So instead of (the present situation) players necessarily being registered with their federation, and being required to reject it, they weren't registered in the first place. Do I misunderstand?

[JustinHorton]

It's not obvious to me how that could ever have been the case when the holding company is a Private Limited Company by guarantee without share capital.

It might be that Curtis still has effective control, but as David suggests, none of the posts relating to that situation, including this one, have any business on this thread.

[David Sedgwick]

As has been noted in other posts, a South African would have needed to affiliate to another Federation in order to play in a FIDE rated event.

It's a fair observation, but am I not right in thinking that this is because FIDE (after 1972? 1974?) derecognised the South African federation, effectively there wasn't one for international purposes. So instead of (the present situation) players necessarily being registered with their federation, and being required to reject it, they weren't registered in the first place. Do I misunderstand?

You are broadly correct, I think.

I make no claim to expertise in this area, but I think that South Africa were indefinitely excluded. My reference to players needing to find another Federation was intended to refer to those who had been FIDE affiliated as South African before the exclusion.

[Hok Yin Stephen Chiu]

The ban by the Nordic countries did not apply to persons resident in the country or under the age of 18. The ECF could have adopted a similar approach, but have chosen not to do so.

This is a very good point, and in my view, the ECF should not be applying blanket bans onto junior chess players.

As has been noted already, there are not many players who will be affected, mostly will be young adults (university students) or juniors. However, on principle, we should rethink the current guidance, and focus on cause-and-effect, and less on symbolic gestures.

As a word of caution, I would just like to say that blanket rules like these have to be carefully thought through, otherwise we end up issuing statements like the British Chess Problem Society that are completely tone-deaf, and does not distinguish between Russian children/students, ethnic Russians, Russian citizens, or the Russian Government.

I don't agree that this action of the British Chess Problem Society is "deplorable and absurd". On the contrary, I congratulate them. Every little helps. Ideally, we want the people of Russia to see that they need to replace Putin with someone who can get on with the West.

[Chris Rice]

Just received an email from the Frome Congress which traditionally happens in May and tagged on at the end under a Ukrainian flag is:

'"The Frome Chess Congress organising committee will implement guidance as directed by the ECF. In line with this, sadly, players with a Russian or Belarusian FIDE registration will be excluded from the event."

[John Townsend]

Justin says: "It is absolutely none of our damned business "to replace" him "with someone who can get on with the West".

What I actually said was: "Ideally, we want the people of Russia to see that they need to replace Putin with someone who can get on with the West."

Clearly, it is our business when Putin invades a sovereign country in Europe without the slightest provocation. Happily, we are not at war over this, but we need to do all we can in other ways, including actions such as that taken by the British Chess Problem Society. It is much too soon to resume normal relations with Russia.

[JustinHorton]

Just received an email from the Frome Congress which traditionally happens in May and tagged on at the end under a Ukrainian flag is:

'"The Frome Chess Congress organising committee will implement guidance as directed by the ECF. In line with this, sadly, players with a Russian or Belarusian FIDE registration will be excluded from the event."

Just out of curiosity do Frome normally get a lot of entries with those registrations?

Justin says: "It is absolutely none of our damned business "to replace" him "with someone who can get on with the West".

What I actually said was: "Ideally, we want the people of Russia to see that they need to replace Putin with someone who can get on with the West."

Distinction without a difference John: it's punishing (or trying to punish) Russian people in pursuit of encouraging them to have agovernment of our liking, which is a very different and less legitimate aim than reversing an illegal invasion.

[Joseph Conlon]

This is a very good point, and in my view, the ECF should not be applying blanket bans onto junior chess players.

As has been noted already, there are not many players who will be affected, mostly will be young adults (university students) or juniors. However, on principle, we should rethink the current guidance, and focus on cause-and-effect, and less on symbolic gestures.

As a word of caution, I would just like to say that blanket rules like these have to be carefully thought through, otherwise we end up issuing statements like the British Chess Problem Society that are completely tone-deaf, and does not distinguish between Russian children/students, ethnic Russians, Russian citizens, or the Russian Government.

Totally agree. I also find some of the ECF statements in a similar vein, about how it's not really a ban on anyone as they can just renounce their nationality in 5 minutes via a FIDE form (imagine applying the same principles to religions - we're banning members of religion X, but we're not really excluding them as they can just convert to religion Y)

On South Africa: I think two very pertinent differences are that back then FIDE ratings were only operating at a much higher level (I know the rating floor was 2200 when I started playing) and international travel was much rarer. So it was much closer to a position where having a FIDE nationality really did mean representing the country.

And one final point on acting in haste and repenting at leisure - suppose the Russian army sits in parts of Ukraine for decades (not at all inconceivable considering previous conflicts). At what point does the ECF decide that it will deign to judge Gary Kasparov (who did a small jail sentence for opposing Putin) as worthy of participating in the Frome Open?

[Roger de Coverly]

sadly, players with a Russian or Belarusian FIDE registration will be excluded from the event."

There's an element of self declaration in this. An organiser would only know if a player was BLR or RUS if either they declared themselves as such, or it was possible to look them up on the FIDE rating site. That in turn might be conditional on the ECF rating site having been loaded with the FIDE code.

Only the Open at Frome is FIDE rated.

[John Townsend]

Chris Goodall wrote:

"It might make them see that, or it might make them see that Putin was absolutely right to stick two fingers up at the West."

There is no sign of their replacing Putin at present, so we have little to lose.

[Jonathan Rogers]

, but we need to do all we can in other ways, including actions such as that taken by the British Chess Problem Society. It is much too soon to resume normal relations with Russia.

You don't find it at all comical to suggest that publishing problems by Russian composers is part of "normal relations with Russia" then?

[NickFaulks]

otherwise we end up issuing statements like the British Chess Problem Society that are completely tone-deaf, and does not distinguish between Russian children/students, ethnic Russians, Russian citizens, or the Russian Government.

The most charitable interpretation of the BCPS statement is that it comes from simple, crass ignorance. However, it certainly does read like racism in its purest form.

[Matt Mackenzie]

And one final point on acting in haste and repenting at leisure - suppose the Russian army sits in parts of Ukraine for decades (not at all inconceivable considering previous conflicts). At what point does the ECF decide that it will deign to judge Gary Kasparov (who did a small jail sentence for opposing Putin) as worthy of participating in the Frome Open?

I expect that any peace agreement (however pragmatic and "lesser evil" it might well be) would lead to sanctions at least being eased against Russia before too long. We are right, however, to be making it clear that a full-scale invasion of Ukraine with the intent of (at best) reducing it to a satellite state in the manner of Belarus is completely unacceptable. And act accordingly, including in chess matters (something many Russians care about, indeed more so than in this country)

[Chris Goodall]

The most charitable interpretation of the BCPS statement is that it comes from simple, crass ignorance. However, it certainly does read like racism in its purest form.

It's still not racism, because every country currently blowing up a neighbour with thermobaric bombs is still being treated the same regardless of their ethnicity. That doesn't make the ban a good idea, though.

There is no sign of their replacing Putin at present, so we have little to lose.

I'm trying to follow this argument - we should sanction ordinary Russians because then they'll replace Putin, but we shouldn't worry about it backfiring because they wouldn't have replaced Putin anyway?

Could we not therefore skip the step where we sanction the ordinary Russians?

[John Townsend]

Chris Goodall wrote:

"I'm trying to follow this argument - we should sanction ordinary Russians because then they'll replace Putin, but we shouldn't worry about it backfiring because they wouldn't have replaced Putin anyway?

Could we not therefore skip the step where we sanction the ordinary Russians?"

I don't follow Chris's logic here. If the sanctions may lead to Putin being replaced, why would we want to "skip" them?