FIDE ratings

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Stephen Westmoreland
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FIDE ratings

Post by Stephen Westmoreland » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:09 pm

Quick question. What is the difference between FIDE rating and the new ECF please? For context an international student was on debut last night at 1300 FIDE and beat a 1500 ECF. A 1700 who gave him a few games after, thought he was much stronger than 1300.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:18 pm

Good question. Let's look at the forum's most active members and see if a pattern emerges:

Roger de Coverly: ECF 1982, FIDE 1871
Justin Horton: ECF 2173, FIDE 2058
Alex Holowczak: ECF 1855, FIDE 1638
Mick Norris: ECF 1847, FIDE 1826
Chris Kreuzer: ECF 2013, FIDE 1978
Nick Faulks: ECF 1921, FIDE 1833

There's some variability there, but it seems to be on the order of 110 points or so on average.

(Edited to remove an inactive player by request.)

LawrenceCooper
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:11 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:18 pm
Good question. Let's look at the forum's most active members and see if a pattern emerges:

Roger de Coverly: ECF 1982, FIDE 1871
Justin Horton: ECF 2173, FIDE 2058
Alex Holowczak: ECF 1855, FIDE 1638
Mick Norris: ECF 1847, FIDE 1826
Chris Kreuzer: ECF 2013, FIDE 1978
Nick Faulks: ECF 1921, FIDE 1833
John Upham: ECF 1645, FIDE 1404

There's some variability there, but it seems to be on the order of 110 points or so on average.
These pesky juniors with their low FIDE ratings :wink:

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Stephen Westmoreland
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Stephen Westmoreland » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:24 pm

Thank you! Our new player is from India and I will bump him up the boards. This forum is awesome (promise not to do anything stupid like go for Silver Rep again).
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:11 pm

"These pesky juniors with their low FIDE ratings :wink:"

er, yes...

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Joey Stewart
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Joey Stewart » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:15 pm

Good thing fide fixed that issue so juniors gain points faster.....oh.

Don't worry though, I'm sure the ECF ones will deflate just as fast as fide and in time we will all be joining that race to the bottom.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:10 am

Joey Stewart wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:15 pm
Don't worry though, I'm sure the ECF ones will deflate just as fast as fide and in time we will all be joining that race to the bottom.
I dpn't think they will though. Although much of the ECF implementation of the Elo method is the same as FIDE's, it's different in a couple of respects. One is that junior players will gain more points than they lose when they alternate good results with poor ones. The other is that new players always count for their opponents and there's effectively a minimum starting rating for new players.


Perhaps I should briefly explain the trick with k factors. Take a five round tournament and assume a player meets an average field of exactly the same rating. Thus their expected score is 2.5. If they score 3 points, they gain 0.5 * k factor and if it's 2/5 they lose 0.5 * k. In the ECF system the k factor for juniors is 40 when they gain points and 20 when they lose. So over two tournaments with a 5/10 score against equally rated players but with one net win and one net loss, under the ECF system but not FIDE there's still a gain of points.

Perhaps as a measure it's not enough. Time will tell. Other national implementations of Elo systems, the Scottish version for example, will treat players with considerable improvement as if they are new.

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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:57 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:10 am

Perhaps I should briefly explain the trick with k factors. Take a five round tournament and assume a player meets an average field of exactly the same rating. Thus their expected score is 2.5. If they score 3 points, they gain 0.5 * k factor and if it's 2/5 they lose 0.5 * k. In the ECF system the k factor for juniors is 40 when they gain points and 20 when they lose. So over two tournaments with a 5/10 score against equally rated players but with one net win and one net loss, under the ECF system but not FIDE there's still a gain of points.
Interesting but, if that's how it's supposed to operate, I think there's a gremlin in the system somewhere. I'll take the example of one of our juniors - I don't want to identify him publicly but will supply RdeC with a name on request - who played consecutive games in January as follows. On 17 January, when he was rated 1300, he lost against a 1429-opponent (so 129 pts higher) which cost 7.0 rating points so his rating was 1293 a week later when he beat a 1198-rated opponent (so 95 pts lower) which netted him 5.0 rating points. Overall outcome, a 50% score against two opponents with average rating slightly above his own resulted in a net loss of 2.0 rating points. [To clarify, these are ECF and not FIDE figures].

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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:07 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:57 am
On 17 January, when he was rated 1300, he lost against a 1429-opponent (so 129 pts higher) which cost 7.0 rating points so his rating was 1293 a week later when he beat a 1198-rated opponent (so 95 pts lower) which netted him 5.0 rating points. Overall outcome, a 50% score against two opponents with average rating slightly above his own resulted in a net loss of 2.0 rating points. [To clarify, these are ECF and not FIDE figures].
For calculations, the ratings are frozen for a month at a time. When he played the player rated 1198 he still counted as rated 1300 in calculations. The detail rating audit gives the full picture where rating gain or loss is difference from expected score multiplied by k factor. Back dated results and new players add complications.
.

Joseph Conlon
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Joseph Conlon » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:48 pm

I think it's easy to find examples of juniors who are 500 points or more underrated on FIDE.

Post-lockdown the ECF variable k factor helps ameliorate things but not enough. FIDE hasn't even got that.

Tim Spanton
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Tim Spanton » Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:07 pm

I suspect the difference of 217pts between my Fide (1825) and my ECF (2042) may be the current most for an adult - and not long ago my Fide was in the low 1700s!

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:38 pm

Oskar Hackner has you beaten; ECF 2429, FIDE 2177.

Andy Stoker
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Andy Stoker » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:10 pm

ECF 2035 FIDE 1723 - though based on few games, I think

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Stephen Westmoreland
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by Stephen Westmoreland » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:34 pm

Another question. Our new Indian player is registered with FIDE. What does that mean in terms of getting ECF membership for matches in England please? Does he need ECF?
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: FIDE ratings

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:58 pm

It means absolutely nothing, unless they are FIDE-rated matches. To play in league matches without the league being charged, he needs to be an ECF member at Bronze level or higher.