Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:52 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:30 am
That is if you are right about the mood of club players. You seem reluctant to test that in practice.
I probably started participating in attempts to rid local leagues of adjudications in the early 1980s. I think it took twenty years and adjournments got discarded as well. But I don't play in Thames Valley or Surrey and on the current rules I wouldn't.

I had an interesting conversation recently with a player who attributed his county's success in the national stages to the local league's relatively early adoption of quickplay finishes. This meant their players were more experienced at clock handling and decision making later in the game when against players who rarely ventured beyond move 40, either at all, or only with the benefit of home analysis and a leisurely move rate.

NickFaulks
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:26 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:52 am
But I don't play in Thames Valley or Surrey and on the current rules I wouldn't.
I play in both, despite my refusal to tolerate adjournment. In Thames Valley this means playing on an odd board. In Surrey, it does bring in the theoretical possibility of adjudication, but over the course of many seasons this has never actually happened.
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John Upham
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by John Upham » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:29 pm

I'm pleased to mention that I led a successful campaign to rid the Surrey Border League of adjournments through sustained nagging.

Other targets include the Thames Valley and Surrey Leagues.

I believe that the London League has now seen the light but Brian did put up stiff resistance but the new Secretary, John Sargent (and others) tipped the balance.
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:58 pm

When QP finishes narrowly failed to get approved in Surrey, one club's members loudly moaned at the next league match we had against them. I told them not to moan as their club had voted against them. I was immediately surrounded by eight angry opponents demanding more details! Of course their club Secretary was one of the many such people who voted with the SCCA Officers, rather than with his club's members. They sacked him, and sent someone else to the meeting and voted the right way. I'm not picking on Surrey here as it must have happened elsewhere.

However, what was unusual was the AGM where the Chairman explained that the agendas etc were late as nobody had heard from the Secretary or where he was. One of the Hon Sec's club mates said, "He's working abroad at the moment". So the meeting later re-elected the Committee en bloc and just looked puzzled when I pointed out beforehand that maybe a new Secretary was needed. At the following AGM, they grudgingly accepted this point as he was still abroad. Sorry for the digression, but with that attitude, it is hardly surprising if they want to stick with the old ways.

I suspect nobody ever did anything about players getting assistance during adjournments as you can't stop it. It's apparently difficult to stop people getting advice during a playing session.

Adjournments were handy sometimes although I hated them. When I had away matches, I sometimes offered adjournment and QP finish, as I knew the opponent would not want to travel to our venue...

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JustinHorton
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:18 pm

Yeah, that's kind of the reason why adjournments need to go, their tactical use as a threat or deterrent.

Havig said that, despite playing (I think ) four seasons in the Surrey League I can't recall travelling to single adjournment, though I can remember a couple of sealed moves.

I'm not so bothered about the role of computers in adjournments: what seems to me unacceptable to having an entire evening wasted.
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by LawrenceCooper » Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:41 pm

I can recall telling a club captain that I was going to play less games that season and ended up playing three games over ten sessions for a score of 1/3 against players graded well below myself :oops:

NickFaulks
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:01 pm

John Upham wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:29 pm
Other targets include the Thames Valley and Surrey Leagues.
My own priority is that, where a quickplay finish is in place, the default time control should include an increment. If the players are permitted to choose a guillotine finish, then they should expect no assistance if their game collapses into chaos.
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John Upham
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by John Upham » Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:08 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:01 pm
John Upham wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:29 pm
Other targets include the Thames Valley and Surrey Leagues.
My own priority is that, where a quickplay finish is in place, the default time control should include an increment. If the players are permitted to choose a guillotine finish, then they should expect no assistance if their game collapses into chaos.
Yes, I agree entirely.

What is worse in when their chaos has an effect on other games in progress, but, perhaps they do not care and enjoy the attention that they might create.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:22 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:41 pm
I can recall telling a club captain that I was going to play less games that season and ended up playing three games over ten sessions for a score of 1/3 against players graded well below myself :oops:
Ah, but did it make you a better player? :wink:

(The sort-of background to that comment is here.)

Having said that, I analysed this position after an adjournment:



Black to move (I had sealed Kg3 moving the king from h2). Position is drawn.

And despite being able to remember enough to hold the draw on resumption, I failed to remember the details of that four years later, and looking at it again after more than ten years, I still can't remember the drawing method.

It may help that I left a cryptic comment on the original post that the critical position is where the Black king manages to get to g1 (I don't think this actually happened in the resumed game, but would have to try and find my game score or PGN from back then if it got entered into my database).

So did the adjournment analysis make me a better player? For the resumption session, yes! Long term, only in the sense that I am more alert to the possibilities and might play on instead of resigning in such positions. But remembering specific details of the many tricks in rook endgames and Q+P endgames, other then general principles, is beyond my skill/ability level (at least not without a lot more study).

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by Joey Stewart » Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:31 pm

I don't think that example could improve anyone's game any further then a half decent ending book/video, which tend to cover such fluke drawing situations as a matter of course.
It's odd your opponent even agreed to play on instead of adjudicating what will either be a guarantee win or draw via engine tablebases and save having to travel for a second evening.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Reg Clucas
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by Reg Clucas » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:33 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:16 am
John Foley wrote:FIDE properly insists on incremental timing in order to have games recognised for rating purposes.
Utter rubbish. I wish I understood what benefit people like John F see in propogating such falsehoods.
Adjournments are no longer part of the FIDE rules but are included in the guidelines in the appendix
Meaning that they are part of the FIDE Laws.
On a related note, a couple of years ago i read that FIDE had set a date after which QPF games would no longer be accepted for rating. I think the date quoted was 2021 - has that actually happened? I can't see any mention of QPF in the rating regulations.

Nick Grey
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:19 pm

on agms we agreed not to propose rule changes And wanted otb to resume. maybe 22-23.will consult and get support. many have not played yet.

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NickFaulks
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:10 am

Reg Clucas wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:33 pm
On a related note, a couple of years ago i read that FIDE had set a date after which QPF games would no longer be accepted for rating. I think the date quoted was 2021 - has that actually happened? I can't see any mention of QPF in the rating regulations.
Not quite. There was a plan by Rules Commission that the Laws covering guillotine finishes would be removed from 1.7.2021, and in connection with that there was a note in the Title ( not Rating ) Regulations that from that date all norm tournaments would need an increment. These ideas were imposed by the Deputy President of that time, and have been dropped.
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Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:25 am

Warning: back to the usual frivolous posting style

Naturally, I hated adjournments as a player. I am fortunate to have had so few in the London League over the years.

But when I was occasionally acting match captain for Barbican in the late 1990s, I did quite like calling for time. I would use my "Dirty Den from Eastenders" voice and people certainly took notice.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Time Ladies and Gentlemen Please!

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:04 pm

John Upham wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:49 pm
An interesting article called

Calling time on adjournments


https://kingstonchess.com/2021/11/06/ca ... ournments/

has appeared on the shiny new Kingston Chess Club web site.
The author would appear to be unaware of the Open International de Saint-Quentin - Mémorial Aloyzas Kveinys - a nine round Swiss played over 7 days with a time control of 90 minutes for 40 moves, then 30 minutes extra, with 30 second increments. On the two days where 2 games are to be played the rules say the morning game can be adjourned following the procedure in the Laws of Chess, Guideline I (although they don't appear to say after how long a playing session).

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