Carlsen's loss...

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MJMcCready
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Carlsen's loss...

Post by MJMcCready » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:33 am

Greetings. In the concurrent Goldmoney Asian classic, I noticed that Carlsen lost to Alireza in the first round, and then saw that GM Danny King posted a video about it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uosrERHGN74

I have to admit, I don't recall the last time I saw the world champion be outplayed like that. It looked to me like he was caught out both strategically and tactically in different phases of the game. Am I wrong? It made me wonder whether the game was telling in anyway, and whether its really only a matter of time before teenager Alireza, dethrones Carlsen. Have you looked at this game and drawn any conclusions from it? What are they? My feeling is that it tells us who the next world champion will be although saying when is much harder, not within the next five years I think.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:35 am

Well, the annotations on ChessBase don't really support that characterization of the game.

I'd say his Firouzja's chances of becoming the next world champion are not zero, but pretty low. His chances of becoming world champion at some point are rather higher.

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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:22 am

I started thinking along those lines when Alireza won that banter blitz match a while ago. Only banter blitz, I know, but Magnus didn't want to lose it.
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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by MJMcCready » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:15 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:35 am
Well, the annotations on ChessBase don't really support that characterization of the game.

I'd say his Firouzja's chances of becoming the next world champion are not zero, but pretty low. His chances of becoming world champion at some point are rather higher.
Doesn't support or contradict it I would say. I think King's account of the game is more reliable. Carlsen doesn't often have mating threats hovering over him and has to resign because of them. Usually when he loses he's only worse, and usually not by much.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:19 pm

Some random thoughts on World Chess Champions (I just realised the other day that Karpov never won a World Championship match - do I have that right?). I was wondering how many people have become World Chess Champion after first losing as a Challenger - i.e. getting all the way to challenging the incumbent? (Anand is one, there must be others.)

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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by Nick Ivell » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:32 pm

Spassky springs to mind as well as Smyslov.

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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:48 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:19 pm
(I just realised the other day that Karpov never won a World Championship match - do I have that right?).
Are you not missing out the second two of the three matches with Korchnoi?

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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by MJMcCready » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:56 pm

The infamous Korchnoi match. Blue yoghurt means offer a draw lol

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:32 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:48 pm
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:19 pm
(I just realised the other day that Karpov never won a World Championship match - do I have that right?).
Are you not missing out the second two of the three matches with Korchnoi?
Yes, I forgot that. For some reason I thought Fischer conceded the title and then Kasparov came along. My apologies to Korchnoi (who I hope might have chuckled, or at least growled grumpily, at being forgotten!).

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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by MJMcCready » Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:48 pm

He may have turned in his grave. It could be argued he wasn't stiff competition but I think that's unfair or inaccurate. At his best Korchnoi was world class. In terms of character, perhaps not!

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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by Tim Harding » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:02 pm

Nick Ivell wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:32 pm
Spassky springs to mind as well as Smyslov.
Smyslov tied his first match with Botvinnik so only failed on a technicality. Smyslov could be included on your list, though, on the basis of the 1948 championship tournament but that had other competitors.
Also Kasparov technically did not lose his first match with Karpov.

I am away from home with no reference books, but from memory the class of players who became world champion only after losing their first world championship challenge match has only two members: Spassky and Anand.
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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:25 pm

Yes Tim, Spassky and Anand.

I'm trying to think of a way to add in Botvinnik, he won the title twice as the challenger ( v Smyslov and Tal ) after losing it.

Karpov lost four FIDE W.C. matches (one on draw odds) before winning it back v Timman in 1993. (does that count?)

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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by MJMcCready » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:47 pm

Returning to the points posed, does anyone attach significance the manner of this loss of Carlsen's. Personally I think he was outclassed. Is it only me who thinks that bearing in mind that rating points weren't in play and perhaps, just perhaps, Carlsen wasn't taking it so seriously?

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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:48 am

Just skipped though the game at Chess Bomb. Typical Rapid Game where one player takes a gamble (Alireza) using the clock
and activity v position. Perfect Rapid/blitz policy, the chances in such cases are always 50-50 till the Fat Lady sings.

Carlsen ignored the activity and then a wee bit of doubt crept in and understandably over estimated the activity.
That Chess Bomb computer rates 34...h4 here ....



...as 3.39 (which apparently is good) So up to here Black was doing fine, hardly a sign of a player getting outclassed.

Carlsen was down to 40 seconds (Alireza was 26 seconds) Carlsen spent 32 precious seconds rejecting 34...h4.not allowing a Rook
on the 7th when all kinds of demons pop up v the White King. Rule of Thumb takes over from pure calculation and played 34...g6.

That moment of doubt was all Alireza's activity needed, Nxe5 ideas had been on the table for a few moves.
He kept his nerve timing it right a couple moves later and won a good activity v position Rapid game.

Full game. Alireza is White.



Edit. I am going to do my grumpy old man bit again (I'm 70 tomorrow so cut me some slack.)
If anybody is going to talk about a game then please post it here rather than hope that the post reader
takes the time to go searching for it. BAH!

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Re: Carlsen's loss...

Post by Nick Ivell » Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:32 pm

I hope you get an Upham tribute, Geoff.

Anyway, happy birthday in case I forget to log in tomorrow...

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