Lateral Puzzle.

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MJMcCready
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Lateral Puzzle.

Post by MJMcCready » Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:30 am

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2021-06-08-imitative-chess-1.png (19.14 KiB) Viewed 1312 times


A puzzle by Henry Dudeney:

A chessboard was on the table with the pieces all set up for a game. So I asked Dr. Bates to play a game with the Major on these conditions: Whatever move Bates made throughout, with the white pieces, the Major must exactly imitate with the black, and Bates must give checkmate on the fourth move. As an experiment, Bates started off with 1. e4, and Rackford replied with 1. e5. Then Bates played 2. Qh5, and the Major had to reply with 2. Qh4. This gave me a good opportunity to explain that White cannot now play 3. QxQ, because it would be impossible for Black then to imitate the move. Neither could he play 3. Qxf7+, because Black cannot do the same thing, as he would have to get out of check. White must always make a move that Black can copy, until the checkmate is actually given on the fourth move.

Can you find the sequence of moves that allows mate in four -I couldn't!

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Joey Stewart » Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:39 am

If black has to copy moves can't you just ignore the Queens and scholars mate him
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Matthew Turner » Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:11 am

A quick look at options shows that knights and Rooks cannot be involved, so it must be the queen that delivers mate. The first move is d4.
I hope that helps.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:45 am

There's also an alternative solution that begins 1.c4.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:39 am

Joey Stewart wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:39 am
If black has to copy moves can't you just ignore the Queens and scholars mate him
No, black king has escape square on d8. Wrong mating square.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:20 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:45 am
There's also an alternative solution that begins 1.c4.
I've solved it with that - nice!

Still trying to work out the 1d4 solution though......

(ah, got it now - much the same principle actually)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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MJMcCready
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by MJMcCready » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:50 pm

The first move is 1.c4 yes. There may be alternatives but can't see them.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:20 pm

MJMcCready wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:50 pm
The first move is 1.c4 yes. There may be alternatives but can't see them.
Much the same principle, as Matt says. Once you've got one, the other should be easy.

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MJMcCready
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by MJMcCready » Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:38 pm

Yeah, okay, got it now, can be done with 1.d4 also.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:21 am

I managed to get both, here is another by Henry Dudeney (1857-1930)

White to play and mate in three, normal chess rules apply but here each white piece must make a move.
Both Rooks and the White King must all move (so one move each) and on the 3rd move deliver checkmate.



Somebody showed me this a while back and right away showed me the solution. :|
It is one of those I would have enjoyed solving.

If you enjoy these and there are other Dudeney puzzles then here...

https://bestforpuzzles.com/bits/canterb ... index.html

...you will find his 'Canterbury Puzzles.'

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:09 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:21 am
I managed to get both, here is another by Henry Dudeney (1857-1930)

White to play and mate in three, normal chess rules apply but here each white piece must make a move.
Both Rooks and the White King must all move (so one move each) and on the 3rd move deliver checkmate.



Somebody showed me this a while back and right away showed me the solution. :|
It is one of those I would have enjoyed solving.

If you enjoy these and there are other Dudeney puzzles then here...

https://bestforpuzzles.com/bits/canterb ... index.html

...you will find his 'Canterbury Puzzles.'
Yes, but I had to resort to elimination. It's easy to establish which of the pieces has to move first and then everything falls into place.

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MJMcCready
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by MJMcCready » Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:31 am

Yeah, that one is not too hard, even I could get it.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:23 pm

Another one that is easy when you see how ;)

The main thing about it is that you have to discard the usual idee fixe that the K has to be mated on the edge of the board.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:05 pm

Hi Matt,

In these type of problems the playing field is level regarding strength of players because
the stronger player does not have a any of the vast arrays of mating patterns to fall back on.
The one I like that proves this is the following. (ignore the White King)



Place two white Rooks and a white Knight on the board so black is in checkmate.

I have showed this to dozens of players. Some good players took ages, some less experienced players got it quite quickly
Try it yourself on your club mates. The stronger player go through their pattern routine and find the cupboard bare (a clue by the way.)
Less experienced players have no such hang up and go straight into solving it not caring about odd looking positions (another clue.)

By swapping the Rooks and Knight about there are actually 8 different solutions! (yet another clue.)

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Lateral Puzzle.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:52 pm

Oh dear. I got the "White to play and mate in three" one, but am struggling with the "two rooks and one knight" in the middle of the board one. I can see from Geoff's clues that it must be a knight check (hence the eight-fold symmetry), and hence the rooks are not giving check. But I can't work out where to put the rooks!! :oops: Earlier, in some desperation, I discounted the illegal position where both rooks are giving check (and the knight is covering two exit squares)...

EDIT: Or maybe the knight is on one of the eight squares around the king... (also 8-fold symmetry)?
Last edited by Christopher Kreuzer on Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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