also available on cassette...

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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:23 pm

Jon Mahony wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:00 pm
Do we know if Basman ever put a cassette out for his book on the Grob?

I don't know if this is common knowledge but Gerard Welling has recently published a book with Basman for Thinkers Press - all of his more wacky opening experiments are covered including the Grob.

The free sample would suggest the book is mostly Welling (now) updating Basman's comments (from back in the day). The sample pages on the St. George that are available that the chapter is based on analysis Bazzer published on audio chess and elsewhere.

It seems a bit pricey, but maybe £26+ is what chess books cost these days. There's a version available for Forward Chess which is a few pounds cheaper.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:12 pm

I think the Basman recommended Sicilian with an early ...Bc5 is at least semi-respectable tbh, I certainly would hesitate to call it "guff".
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JustinHorton
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:40 pm

I was under the impression that "refuted" might have been the correct term
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NickFaulks
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:55 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:40 pm
I was under the impression that "refuted" might have been the correct term
How does the refutation go?
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JustinHorton
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:29 pm

I can't say I remember, but did it not come up in reviews of the recent Giddons book, and perhaps in the book itself?

(I also think it might be in Plaskett's old Taimanov book, which I have and can probably leaf through later. EDIT: that's a Taimanov with 5 Nb5 Bc5, which may not be the line we're discussing - is that 2...e6 and 4...Bc5?)
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:02 pm

Yes, its the latter.

(I think the supposed "refutation" of the other line may have been discussed on here before)
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:13 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:29 pm
is that 2...e6 and 4...Bc5?)

That was Basman's idea, reviving a line played by Paulsen against Morphy. I wouldn't say there's a refutation, but White could be comfortable gaining time with Nb3 and space with c4.

Games with elite players on either side are infrequent, Plaskett played a few with Black, but that was in the 1980s.

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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:33 pm

I think it is the crazy line in the Taimanov with 5.Nb5, Bc5 that was truly refuted. 4...Bc5, as Roger says, seems to allow 2600 players to get an easy +=, which isn't necessarily a concern for the rest of us. I have always regarded Nd4-b3 as a small victory for Black, taking it one move further away from my king.
Last edited by NickFaulks on Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:30 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:12 pm
I think the Basman recommended Sicilian with an early ...Bc5 is at least semi-respectable tbh, I certainly would hesitate to call it "guff".
Semi-respectable compared to other Basman openings, no doubt, but have you ever actually played it? I did pretty well with it personally - we're talking late 80s and perhaps early 90s - but that doesn't change my opinion of it.

And, yes, as Justin said above, there was a line that came up in the (by comparison with Basman's publications) recent book on the system.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:37 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:13 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:29 pm
is that 2...e6 and 4...Bc5?)

That was Basman's idea, reviving a line played by Paulsen against Morphy.
Indeed. Although the revival was accidental. I recall him saying on the tape that he didn't know about the Morphy - Paulsen games until Hartston told him about them.
Hartston - Basman played two games in the line. One at Hastings (1973/74) and another at the British Championship.

Basman's key idea was try to get in ... f5 as soon as possible.

Incidentally, one thing about Basman that's very much to his credit - his opening ideas may be ropey, but he does (or did) at least play what he recommended. Unlike many authors who don't seem to mind promoting dubious pap without having any intention of having it on their own boards.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:46 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:40 pm
I was under the impression that "refuted" might have been the correct term
Semi-refutation according to The Chess Mind

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2015/8 ... ilian.html
and

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2015/8 ... ilian.html

The line in question being
1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 e6, 3 d4 cxd4, 4 Nxd4 Bc5, 5 Be3 Qb6, 6 b4

although it's far from the only good line against the system.


Is this relevant to club players? To an extent it depends how often you play people who can prepare against you, I suppose.

More significant argument: if you don't mind getting slightly dodgy positions, why bother trying to get an open Sicilian which your opponents will avoid more than half the time at club level? Why not go for the St George or Grob or any of the other Basman specials and at least be sure you'll get your dodgy positions on the board.

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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:22 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:46 pm
The line in question being
1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 e6, 3 d4 cxd4, 4 Nxd4 Bc5, 5 Be3 Qb6, 6 b4
If that's the refutation, then I would say Black is comfortably in business.
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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:47 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:22 pm
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:46 pm
The line in question being
1 e4 c5, 2 Nf3 e6, 3 d4 cxd4, 4 Nxd4 Bc5, 5 Be3 Qb6, 6 b4
If that's the refutation, then I would say Black is comfortably in business.
You've played this system in rated games?

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:51 pm

I played the 4....Bc5 line up until mid-80s, and got about 68 % (nearly 100 games) with black, and +2=0-0 with white, almost falling out of my chair when someone played it against me about 10 years ago. There were some spectacularly depressing reverses with it, but mainly against people 200 points higher so you kind of expect that. However, I did get a draw against Nigel Povah, and against Ray Keene in a simul (and I know simuls don't really count), but the system can't have been complete rubbish.

I asked Mike if he knew that Paulsen had played it vs Morphy and he expressed surprise, but he could have been being polite of course.

"Incidentally, one thing about Basman that's very much to his credit - his opening ideas may be ropey, but he does (or did) at least play what he recommended. Unlike many authors who don't seem to mind promoting dubious pap without having any intention of having it on their own boards."

Polonius would be proud of him, "This above all, to thine own self be true".

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: also available on cassette...

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:56 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:51 pm
I asked Mike if he knew that Paulsen had played it vs Morphy and he expressed surprise, but he could have been being polite of course.
When did you ask him? He talked about Hartston telling him about the Paulsen games on the cassette. He might well have forgotten many years later, of course.

Something else he might have preferred to forget is getting bapped by Timman at Hastings 1973/74. The Bf4-d6 plan is very simple for White but very tricky to meet for Black. HIARCS (both book and engine) prefers 7 ... d5 over 7 ... 0-0. That's pretty unpleasant for Black though. I'm prepared to believe not actually losing, but clearly not what you're after in an opening position - and certainly not if you're trying to create messy complications in an attempt to win with Black.

You played the line much more frequently than I ever did. I'm quite sure club players can win with it. Although, dodgy openings now are a very different to dodgy openings back in the day.

It's still guff, though.



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