Racist terminology in chess problems

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JustinHorton
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:30 pm

I wonder if we could confine this thread to the question of racist terminology and behaviour in chess rather than the individual hissy fits of offended chess players
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:52 pm

Hi Justin

I was replying to Tim and police listening in and misunderstanding chess terminology.
This was no laughing matter, as I said it really kicked off due to a harmless misunderstanding
It resulted, eventually, in a chess club losing their playing premises and being told to leave.

If for some reason you are reading into that me cracking jokes about racism....good grief.
Grass me up to Carl and Jack, see if they pull the post. It's a genuine post about a genuine incident and a misunderstanding.

BTW the thread subject was discussed on another site a few years ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments ... native_to/

The advice was contact the relevant society which David offered to do but his good intentions were also misunderstood.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:59 pm

I'm quite sure you're capable of turning this into a thread about you Geoff, perhaps you might like not to for a change
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:01 pm

(For those who are interested, the distinction between "albino" and the term in question is that albino is not only not a racial slur, it's not a racial term at all - it refers to a specific medical condition that can affect people of any race, and is in fact most common in people from sub-Saharan Africa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism_in_humans )

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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:33 pm

Hi Justin,

I replied to Tim, agreed it was off topic but as the whole thread went tits up due to misunderstandings it seemed apt.

At the risk of looking like I'm taking over the thread. Some more info about the topic.

These unfortunate terms was first coined by Frank Janet (1875-1957) in 1916.

Wiki's Glossary of Chess Terms mentions it may cause offence.

(The term, which derives from an archaic reference to small black children, has a potentially derogatory meaning in modern English.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_ ... problems#P

Sound out the Problem Society. I'd be surprised if this has not crossed their desk before.
Have alternative names ready something like the 'Frank Janet Theme'

And that is it from me and this thread. Good Luck.

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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:43 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:30 pm
I wonder if we could confine this thread to the question of racist terminology and behaviour in chess rather than the individual hissy fits of offended chess players
My contribution is to link to this press release from Wise Wizard Games form March of this year.

https://www.wisewizardgames.com/white-w ... rd%20Games.

The point being that the company - formed in 2013 - used to be called White Wizard Games until that point. An allusion to Gandalf, it seems. I suspect many people who regularly use a chess forum would know that. I did not.

Wise Wizards make a game called Star Realms which is one of the more popular card games of the last 10 years, as I understand it. So a name change of the parent company is quite a big deal.

Anyway, the point is that problematic names can be changed quite easily and it not be a big deal. Once you consider them problematic, that is.


I'm not sure how keen on how keen the chess world is to do as the folks at Wise WIzards did and have a bit of a think and a reflect.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:02 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:01 pm
(For those who are interested, the distinction between "albino" and the term in question is that albino is not only not a racial slur, it's not a racial term at all - it refers to a specific medical condition that can affect people of any race, and is in fact most common in people from sub-Saharan Africa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism_in_humans )
But to quote from the Albinism society "Some consider the use of the term 'albino' as offensive as a racial slur". They give advice on better terminology to use.

https://www.albinism.org/information-bu ... u-call-me/

Paul Habershon
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Paul Habershon » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:04 am

There is controversy too in tournament Scrabble, with Mattel, the owning company, wishing to make the game more 'family friendly' by eliminating racial slurs and other offensive terms from the official lists of allowable words. UK tournaments use Collins Scrabble Words based on the dictionary of the same name. The majority of UK players are against the idea for various reasons. Nearly three hundred words are under threat - I haven't seen a complete list - perhaps even publishing it draws unwelcome attention to the offending items. Where do you draw the line, though? I think CAKEWALK may be on the list because it has some connection with slavery.

Scrabble is not a game of meanings. Many leading players do not even have English as their first language, but have an amazing facility for remembering what's allowable. I am white and would be quite happy to see HONKY remain in the game. Words are part of history, which is difficult to rewrite or control. Offence is mostly to do with context. If I were playing family Scrabble I would certainly avoid certain words, but in tournament play I would expect opponents to know the rules and be fairly unshockable.

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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:23 am

Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:04 am
Words are part of history, which is difficult to rewrite or control.
Rewriting and controlling history is a huge and well funded industry.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:43 am

Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:04 am
There is controversy too in tournament Scrabble ....
Oh yes. It goes back some years. IIRC it's mentioned in Word Freak (https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=word+freak ... doa-p_1_10) which was published in 2002. An excellent read, anyway, which I highly recommend.

However, the Scrabble issue is a bit different to the chess discussion here and and Wise Wizards name change. A word still exists whether you ignore it or not - but as you say context is everything and some words you may wish to use if only in the context of "Boris Johnson's use of the term X was unpleasant"

Names / terms / labels can change - and we have them do so regularly as times change and the previous ones become out of date for some reason. There's no reason to keep an outdated label hanging around.

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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Paul Habershon » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 am

It's such a pity that the p ... y word in the chess problem pawn discussion has become taboo. It wasn't so originally and I find it quite pleasant sounding. It should still be innocently bracketed with bambino, wee bairn etc. which I assume are still ok.

NickFaulks
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:01 am

Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 am
It should still be innocently bracketed with bambino, wee bairn etc. which I assume are still ok.
Don't give them ideas.
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Alex McFarlane
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by Alex McFarlane » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:20 am

Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 am
wee bairn etc. which I assume are still ok
Paul, bairn is still used widely in Scotland and the north of England. However, you have now left yourself open to accusations of being heightist by prefixing the word with 'wee' , at least I hope that is what you meant by that word! Although I do acknowledge that small children do have a habit of suffering from the other meaning of the word.

Seriously, this topic seems to have generated quite a bit of heat. Language evolves. What was once acceptable may no longer be and vice versa. But before getting overly concerned it is worth remembering that the acceptability, or otherwise, of words is a gradual thing and that people will move at a different pace. Provided the user is not deliberately trying to offend, I have no problem with that.
As an example, consider some of our more extreme swear words. These were once acceptable Anglo Saxon terms which were superseded by the 'more polite Norman equivalents. Whilst still unacceptable to most of the population their usage is increasing again and may soon become common place.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:22 pm

Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:50 am
It's such a pity that the p ... y word in the chess problem pawn discussion has become taboo. It wasn't so originally and I find it quite pleasant sounding
It became "taboo" because it was a hateful term used to degrade and humiliate peiple, which is more important than whether it sounds nice.
NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:23 am
Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:04 am
Words are part of history, which is difficult to rewrite or control.
Rewriting and controlling history is a huge and well funded industry.
Nobody "controls" history but there is indeed a large industry devoted to rewriting history. It's called "history" and it is worked in by "historians".
Alex McFarlane wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:20 am
But before getting overly concerned it is worth remembering that the acceptability, or otherwise, of words is a gradual thing and that people will move at a different pace.
For ure, but in the first place there is moving a different paces and there is reluctance to move at all. And in the second place there is who decides what pace should e moved at and who is told to wait for the slowest and most reluctant movers to catch up, and this may be how we are in a situation where the chess community finds itself apparently embarking on debates that were had elsewhere a lifetime ago.
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David Sedgwick
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:29 pm

I am returning briefly to this thread to advise that I have received notice that the British Chess Problem Society will be taking place over Zoom on Sunday 20th June.

That would of course be an appropriate time to raise the issue, if you can find a BCPS member who will be attending and is willing to do so.

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