As always, Justin, you're most welcome.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:25 pmIn all seriousness Roger, thank you very much, you've been most helpful.
Racist terminology in chess problems
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
Can we remind ourselves that we are discussing a term sufficiently loaded with meaning that it was employed for inflammatory effect in a racist speech still notorious half a century later. People should maybe bear that in mind when making comparisons (which may of course be illuminating) and they should perhaps also do so when seeking to judge the offensiveness of the term or the apparent fact that people were subsequently able to use it without considering whether or not they should.Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:32 pmIn much the same way, I can see that "night watchman" will upset some cricket fans as sexist
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
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"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:10 pmI agree with the decision to replace the headstone. The original wording only distracted from the message.
I am confused. Have I not basically said that I agree with Mr Holland?John Upham wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:57 pmHow would you answer the comments of historian James Holland?
Brian Edgell sums up my thinking pretty well.
Edit: I'll leave it there. I have just realised that this discussion is taking place in a thread in which I stated I would not post again.
Last edited by David Sedgwick on Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
Can we also remind ourselves that the use of a word frequently depends on the context in which it's used. By way of example, the words, "F--k you", can be interpreted as either friendly or offensive depending on context and tone.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:42 pmCan we remind ourselves that we are discussing a term sufficiently loaded with meaning that it was employed for inflammatory effect in a racist speech still notorious half a century later. People should maybe bear that in mind when making comparisons (which may of course be illuminating) and they should perhaps also do so when seeking to judge the offensiveness of the term or the apparent fact that people were subsequently able to use it without considering whether or not they should.Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:32 pmIn much the same way, I can see that "night watchman" will upset some cricket fans as sexist
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
Agreed, David. Brian's contribution was clear, honest and wise.
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
It is a pity that the majority of the post's here are emotional incontinence from over-privileged, elderly white children, well past their bedtimes, spitting their dummies and throwing off their comfort blankets as the need of others are temporarily addressed. But I do also wish Justin would resist the temptation to hiss like an alley cat at every pissy provocation. He raised a matter that should be viewed as important to problemists, whether composers or solvers, and against his call for change the only arguments that are raised are those of latter day Pharisees.
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
I was speculating how many posts it might take before someone introduces a fascinating debate about "manholes" and "manholes covers" and I'd say "Night watchman" is of similar vein.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:42 pmCan we remind ourselves that we are discussing a term sufficiently loaded with meaning that it was employed for inflammatory effect in a racist speech still notorious half a century later. People should maybe bear that in mind when making comparisons (which may of course be illuminating) and they should perhaps also do so when seeking to judge the offensiveness of the term or the apparent fact that people were subsequently able to use it without considering whether or not they should.Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:32 pmIn much the same way, I can see that "night watchman" will upset some cricket fans as sexist
Anyway, I've mentioned it once but I'm not sure if I will get away with it.
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
Brian is referring to the Adventures Of Dan The Pawn book, I presume.
As I mentioned just the other day, I recall that causing a bit of a stir at the time.
As I mentioned just the other day, I recall that causing a bit of a stir at the time.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
"Seriously, this topic seems to have generated quite a bit of heat. Language evolves. What was once acceptable may no longer be and vice versa. But before getting overly concerned it is worth remembering that the acceptability, or otherwise, of words is a gradual thing and that people will move at a different pace. Provided the user is not deliberately trying to offend, I have no problem with that.
As an example, consider some of our more extreme swear words. These were once acceptable Anglo Saxon terms which were superseded by the 'more polite Norman equivalents. Whilst still unacceptable to most of the population their usage is increasing again and may soon become common place."
I hesitate to agree with Alex, but I think he's right.
As an example, consider some of our more extreme swear words. These were once acceptable Anglo Saxon terms which were superseded by the 'more polite Norman equivalents. Whilst still unacceptable to most of the population their usage is increasing again and may soon become common place."
I hesitate to agree with Alex, but I think he's right.
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
No you are notRoger Lancaster wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:19 pmI surely can't be alone in wishing that more time and effort was spent in combatting ultra-right-wing groups with unashamedly racist views and rather less on arguing over a word, admittedly inappropriate in today's climate, written without racist intent in a context where its existence would - but for this thread - have remained largely unnoticed and thus have caused offence to very few, if anyone.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57406673
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
Confronting proper Nazis and challenging racism aren't exactly binary choices are they? And many of those posting here seem to be struggling with the latter so I wouldn't expect they would be able to handle the rather more complex circumstances of the former. Do posters here challenge racism when they hear it in pubs either directly or by reporting it to the staff. I don't think posters here are racist, but I'm not convinced many would challenge racism either.
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
To take on Justin's mantel perhaps you could provide us with concrete examples of where your actions went beyond mere shallow virtue signalling.
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
I've sat through courses where the lecturer has argued, and it doesn't seem to me an unreasonable argument, that virtually everyone is racist to some extent. That follows from racism being founded on prejudice and it's a brave man [or woman] who claims to have no prejudices. For example, we choose friends and lovers based very much on prejudice - often choosing persons who, in one way or another, are like us. The important thing, so the argument goes, is to recognise one's own prejudices and not act on them in a way offensive to or detrimental to others.J T Melsom wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:13 pmConfronting proper Nazis and challenging racism aren't exactly binary choices are they? And many of those posting here seem to be struggling with the latter so I wouldn't expect they would be able to handle the rather more complex circumstances of the former. Do posters here challenge racism when they hear it in pubs either directly or by reporting it to the staff. I don't think posters here are racist, but I'm not convinced many would challenge racism either.
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
Again the recommendation is the use of the foe list for any members simply getting on your nerves.
Cheers
Carl Hibbard
Carl Hibbard
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Re: Racist terminology in chess problems
Hi John,John Upham wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:30 pmI was speculating how many posts it might take before someone introduces a fascinating debate about "manholes" and "manholes covers"
Threads like this often go the way of those step ladder puzzles.
Change Rook to Pawn in five steps: ROOK - look - loon - loan - lawn - PAWN.
In five pages this thread has gone from a chess problem to a freshly jailed neo nazi.
I'm just passing by Justin, not taking the thread over but in an effort to get your point back on track.
The book you mentioned at the start of the thread.
It revolves around Problem No 62 and in the solutions the author appears uncomfortable with the term. He feels a need to explain it.
"Kindly meant when this type problem was labelled some fifty years ago [it was 1916] is the tag Pickaninny
It was meant to be a graphic summing up of the four eye-catching moves of the baby Black Pawn and the name has stuck."
The debate is: (and I think most agree) is it about time it became 'unstuck.'
For the sake of completeness, I'll give the problem in question. It might spark an idea for a new term.
(Mansfield 1962) White has just played 1.Ne4-f6.
Ignoring Black King moves. a Pickaninny is all four different moves available to the e7 pawn result in four different mates in one.
Last edited by Geoff Chandler on Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.