How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

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Wadih Khoury
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How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Wadih Khoury » Mon May 24, 2021 5:54 pm

I haven't finished my first event (looking good, almost full), but a discussion on another thread got me pondering on how to give junior some serious and challenging adults to face. In the last 4NCL online open, 59% of participants were juniors, resulting in many junior vs junior games.

In my opinion, which I appreciate may not be shared by all, the sweet spot for growth is when playing players about 200 rating points above your own. Still gives you about 25% of points, so it's not a demoralising beating, and also the moves (positional or tactical) are mostly still within your understanding.

My thinking was maybe to organise some sort of Scheveningen: a 5-6 junior vs 5-6 adults over 2 or 3 days. This would allow to get 2100+ adults (maybe 2200+ even) and give the children 5-6 challenging games. A bit like norm Scheveningen, but for a level or two below that.
Also might create some junior team spirit and positive reinforcement loops.

Thing is, how would you go organising such a tournament? As I see it, the issues are:
  • not many adults enjoy playing juniors, especially if they can lose rating
  • probably means I would need to offer free entry to the adults to entice them to play only juniors over a week-end? Or maybe a prize to the adult team depending on how many points they got?
  • balance the books with only 5-12 paying participants.
  • how to even advertise for such an event? I think I can reach some of the top juniors or some age groups, and others through the ECF, but how would you find adults willing to play such an event (and ideally pay for it). Also, the pool of 2200 (or even 2000) players playing OtB isn't that big (e.g. only 400 players between 2100 and 2200).
  • if Fide rated, adds the complexity of ECF membership needing to be gold or above
I think such events were common in the 70s' but I have no experience nor the slightest glimmer of insight on how to make such an event work. Or any alternative that achieves the same goals (i.e. get a bunch of strong juniors to play adults 200+ above their levels).
Maybe ask an experienced organisers who may have willing players on his distribution list and could organise it for a fee (but how much would it cost?)

Alex McFarlane
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Alex McFarlane » Mon May 24, 2021 8:48 pm

Difficult to see how you can make a Scheveningen work without some sort of gimmick to attract a sponsor.

You could try either women v youth or age (over 65?) v youth. Either increases the chances of publicity.

I don't expect that you would have trouble FIDE rating such an event but it would need to be approved in advance (due to some history with that type of event, though title norms were also involved in the dubious ones).

Peter Hornsby
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Peter Hornsby » Mon May 24, 2021 8:55 pm

One of those already exists :D

https://results.scorchapp.co.uk/t/2020chess/standings/9

Surbiton Juniors, ran by Chris Briscoe, played against a senior team from Port Elizabeth A over the weekend:


The most well-known example we had was when a junior academy from Pinellas County Florida got the opportunity to play against Harvard University:


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Wadih Khoury
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Wadih Khoury » Mon May 24, 2021 9:30 pm

Sorry, wasn't clear enough: I meant it to be an OtB experience.

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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Peter Hornsby » Mon May 24, 2021 9:39 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 9:30 pm
Sorry, wasn't clear enough: I meant it to be an OtB experience.
We hope to get back to OTB, as that's where we originated from: https://2020chess.com/the-story-and-his ... hess-.html

We have had junior teams compete against adults, King Edward School being a notable example:

https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer ... ifier.docx

The Swiss system works rather well to give these opportunities, sort of like the early round of the FA Cup in football.

Good luck with your project, any questions feel free to ask :D
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Matthew Turner
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Matthew Turner » Mon May 24, 2021 10:29 pm

Tricky to make this work, so here goes
9 adults, 9 junior scheveningen

Adults prizes
1st 150
2nd 140
3rd 130
4th 120
5th 110

Juniors entry fee £150, top two have entry fee returned

Income = 1050
Prizes = 650

So 400 for the venue and expenses

I could see how that could be attractive for both sets of players (I am sort of assuming the juniors are 2000 and the adults 2200)

Wadih Khoury
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Wadih Khoury » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:34 am

Based on the feedback, I am thinking of something like:

Fide rated. Adults to be 2000+ Fide, juniors 1800+ ECF (may tweak the numbers)
Junior entry fee: £150

Adult appearance incentive: £50

And then some adult prizes (1st £100, 2nd £75, 3rd £50) or something to that effect. This way there is something in it for all adults:

- 5-10 rounds of OtB chess
- free entry
- some guaranteed money
- some performance incentive
- volunteering aspect to help juniors

Would you know many adults willing to play in such an event, or alternatively would you know where I could reach them? I may organise it in August.

Another thing I was thinking about: I noticed that pairing software have options to disallow pairings between players of the same federation or club.
Can I get an event Fide rated (no norms involved) if I split the players into a "junior" and "adult" teams, and run it as a standard Swiss with same team pairing disallowed?

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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:37 am

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:34 am
Can I get an event Fide rated (no norms involved) if I split the players into a "junior" and "adult" teams, and run it as a standard Swiss with same team pairing disallowed?
Of course. It isn't tournaments that are rated, it is games.
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Adam Raoof
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Adam Raoof » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:40 am

To be honest, I would play in this.
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:52 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 10:29 pm
Adults prizes
1st 150
2nd 140
3rd 130
4th 120
5th 110
Is it really necessary nowadays to bribe 21/2200 rated adults to play chess? When I was in that range I would have been delighted to play for nothing.
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:54 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:52 am
Matthew Turner wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 10:29 pm
Adults prizes
1st 150
2nd 140
3rd 130
4th 120
5th 110
Is it really necessary nowadays to bribe 21/2200 rated adults to play chess? When I was in that range I would have been delighted to play for nothing.
No, but there is a tradition of prize money in chess events, even at amateur levels. I am surprised you were unaware of that.

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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:01 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:54 am
No, but there is a tradition of prize money in chess events, even at amateur levels. I am surprised you were unaware of that.
Yes, but not of cash prizes for coming last. Nor of amateurs getting zero entry fees.

When first prize is £150 and last prize is £110, you're not really talking about prize money.

By the way, why so aggressive? If I have touched a nerve, I cannot work out where.
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:01 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:54 am
No, but there is a tradition of prize money in chess events, even at amateur levels. I am surprised you were unaware of that.
Yes, but not of cash prizes for coming last. Nor of amateurs getting zero entry fees.

When first prize is £150 and last prize is £110, you're not really talking about prize money.

By the way, why so aggressive? If I have touched a nerve, I cannot work out where.
When there are 9 (adult) players then 5th is not last. Again, I thought you may have noticed that

Wadih Khoury
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Wadih Khoury » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:42 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:52 am

Is it really necessary nowadays to bribe 21/2200 rated adults to play chess? When I was in that range I would have been delighted to play for nothing.
I was advised that it would be necessary to provide a financial incentive, especially as the games would be FIDE rated.

It would make the event much more affordable to the juniors if I could get strong, FIDE rated, adults for free. Or a cheaper venue.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: How would you organise a junior vs adult tournament?

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:06 pm

I wouldn't mind potentially sacrificing some rating points to kids if I was getting paid for the privilege but is it really what THEY want? In my experience of coaching younger players they seem to prefer playing against people in their own age range so tournaments like this would only really be appealing for the very elite few who are forging ahead towards master level.
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