How to play against engine-users on lichess

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Joseph Conlon
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How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by Joseph Conlon » Tue May 18, 2021 8:37 pm

I raise this as I would like to get a sense for what people do, and how they adjust, when they feel they are playing someone using an engine on an online site (lichess for example, but any other will do). I was spurred to post this by this game tonight, but I have had similar experiences before.

https://lichess.org/W06LvvFbUHE1

I was suspicious from move 2 (yes, really) - when he took 7 seconds to reply 2. ... Nc6 from 1. e4 e5. Nf3, and so then made the decision not to go into the Evans gambit, which I normally play, and instead do something quieter - and I felt engine use was highly likely after 8. ... o-o, as it was played (to my mind) far too quickly for the apparent pawn sacrifice. I reported straight after the game and a ban was more or less instant.

I know when I think I am up against an engine user I deliberately try and go for tame positions and try and avoid tactics, favouring positions that require long grinds rather than short fireworks, the logic being that this is more likely to give me a chance to get back in the game when a non-engine move is made. What do others do? Or are you all more trusting than me?

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JustinHorton
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by JustinHorton » Tue May 18, 2021 8:51 pm

"Black resigned"?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Joseph Conlon
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by Joseph Conlon » Tue May 18, 2021 9:02 pm

I know...I thought it might be a resignation to avoid suspicion, on the doubtful premise that if you use an engine and then lose by throwing in a resignation in a won endgame, that somehow makes it all fine, or prevents your rating getting too high, or something like that!

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JustinHorton
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by JustinHorton » Tue May 18, 2021 9:41 pm

I wouldn't go too far with that idea. Only a couple of days ago I resigned a very won position under a misapprehension, and I wouldn't want any conclusions to be drawn from that.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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JustinHorton
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by JustinHorton » Tue May 18, 2021 9:46 pm

I have to say that if I look at a player's games and they've lost a few and have made a bunch of blunders, I'm not immediately convinced they're cheats. And seven seconds for move two doesn't mean anything.

(EDIT: looking back at the games they initially played when they first joined, though, you get a different impression, and maybe the decision was based on those.)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Roger Lancaster
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue May 18, 2021 10:49 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:46 pm
And seven seconds for move two doesn't mean anything.
I too find this rather odd. If this means that, if I take 7 seconds to decide whether to play Petroffs Defence or not, someone is already going to suspect me of cheating, that rather takes the fun out of online chess. [That's said without prejudice to whether the guy in question was or wasn't cheating].

Joseph Conlon
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by Joseph Conlon » Wed May 19, 2021 7:17 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:49 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:46 pm
And seven seconds for move two doesn't mean anything.
I too find this rather odd. If this means that, if I take 7 seconds to decide whether to play Petroffs Defence or not, someone is already going to suspect me of cheating, that rather takes the fun out of online chess. [That's said without prejudice to whether the guy in question was or wasn't cheating].
Ultimately it's a well-defined statistics question. (A) What is the probability that a random opponent on lichess will satisfy their criteria for a flag? (B) Given that there is a significant pause on move 2, how does this update the probability?

For players with rapid ratings ~2400, my estimates are that (A) is around 3% and (B) around 30%, which is high enough for me to alter how I play.

dejan_lekic
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by dejan_lekic » Wed May 19, 2021 10:04 am

I suggest you just do your best and play the game to the best of your abilities. If your opponent is a cheater he/she will be banned eventually and that account will get closed (as is the case with your opponent - that account is closed on lichess). It is not the end of the world - it is not that you were playing in some tournament or something so losing to a cheater had big impact...

NickFaulks
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by NickFaulks » Wed May 19, 2021 10:11 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:49 pm
that rather takes the fun out of online chess.
I have formed the impression that suspecting / accusing people of cheating is half the fun.
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David Sedgwick
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed May 19, 2021 3:43 pm

During a game I never think about it. Even after a game, I have never felt motivated to report anyone.

Every so often I receive a message from Chess.com giving me back a few rating points because X has cheated. Only then might I look at X's games.

On the other hand I spend quite a lot of time seeking to influence chess bodies, organisers and arbiters to adopt Fair Play policies which safeguard the innocent while nailing the guilty. I realise that it is nigh on impossible to do both those things. In competitions, I have come to the conclusion that much the best approach is to make it difficult for cheaters to cheat in the first place.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed May 19, 2021 4:07 pm

dejan_lekic wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 10:04 am
I suggest you just do your best and play the game to the best of your abilities etc...
Good Post , Absolutely correct, just play your normal game, if you start thinking 'Cheat' without any proof then you will
not play your normal game and worse, you will not enjoy the game, so then you have to ask why play in the first place
(why play a game, any game , if you are not enjoying it.)

99.999% of the time the game is meaningless. Relax, have some fun, chill, sac things and lose, try again, sac things and win.
The important thing is YOU are not cheating.

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JustinHorton
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed May 19, 2021 6:18 pm

Are you telling people not to bother about things again, Geoff? That's what, a thousand times this year yet?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Geoff Chandler
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed May 19, 2021 6:27 pm

Hi Justin,

:)

as usual wrong again, it's 378 times since January the first, but don't worry about it. (379)

Reg Clucas
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by Reg Clucas » Thu May 20, 2021 2:10 pm

7 seconds could maybe be explained by a flaky connection. But I did wonder about my opponent in a recent online standard-play game when he took 7 minutes to make his 6th move as White after I played 5...g6 in a standard Sicilian Dragon move order. Maybe not using an engine, but consulting an opening book? Or maybe he just had a domestic emergency. I tend to agree with Geoff that it's no use getting upset about it. OTB chess will return eventually...

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John Upham
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Re: How to play against engine-users on lichess

Post by John Upham » Thu May 20, 2021 2:18 pm

Reg Clucas wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:10 pm
7 seconds could maybe be explained by a flaky connection. But I did wonder about my opponent in a recent online standard-play game when he took 7 minutes to make his 6th move as White after I played 5...g6 in a standard Sicilian Dragon move order. Maybe not using an engine, but consulting an opening book? Or maybe he just had a domestic emergency. I tend to agree with Geoff that it's no use getting upset about it. OTB chess will return eventually...

How would you have interpreted a 7 minute wait in an OTB game?

There are arguably at least six decent alternatives for White after 5...g6.
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