Carlsen's ranking of world champions

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NickFaulks
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:02 pm

Maybe I am prejudiced, but a genius darts player?
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat May 01, 2021 6:18 pm

Yes, it can be argued a few people can be thus described.
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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat May 01, 2021 7:51 pm

I'd want to argue the case for Emanuel Lasker in the 'genius' category - basically, as a polymath. World chess champion for a record 27 years, represented Germany at international contract bridge events, eminent mathematician and philosopher, although less distinguished as a dramatist.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat May 01, 2021 8:08 pm

Even "only" his chess achievements approach genius level (isn't Carlsen quite a fan himself?)
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JustinHorton
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by JustinHorton » Sat May 01, 2021 8:19 pm

When people say "genius", what specifically are they thinking of
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Nick Burrows
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Nick Burrows » Sat May 01, 2021 9:42 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 8:19 pm
When people say "genius", what specifically are they thinking of
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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by MJMcCready » Sun May 02, 2021 3:53 am

MVG almost got two in a row once, missing out on the double 12 to finish them off.

Nick Ivell
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun May 02, 2021 11:45 am

I think Justin's question deserves a serious answer.

Without consulting a dictionary, I define genius as immense natural talent. It normally manifests itself early, like Mozart's music for example.

When genius is allied with monomania and an immense capacity for hard work, you get a player like Fischer!

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JustinHorton
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by JustinHorton » Sun May 02, 2021 12:24 pm

Nick Ivell wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:45 am
, I define genius as immense natural talent.
But does this mean anything? Do we have a scientific basis for it?
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Nick Ivell
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun May 02, 2021 12:26 pm

No scientific basis at all.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by JustinHorton » Sun May 02, 2021 12:45 pm

No, it's OK! I mean personally I find the idea quite attractive, some kind of innate ability that most of us don't possess, explaining why some people not only develop extraordinary capacities to do this or that, but in such a way as to seem both natural and idiosyncratic, like this is them, it can't entirely be taught. But we don't seem to have a scientific basis for it.
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Nick Ivell
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun May 02, 2021 12:49 pm

Cannot we all accept on this forum - with the possible exception of Nigel Short, who posts here occasionally - that Bobby Fischer had an innate ability that the rest of us don't possess?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by JustinHorton » Sun May 02, 2021 12:51 pm

No, I wouldn't have thought we could.
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun May 02, 2021 2:01 pm

That seems correct. This is the internet where substantial numbers of people argue the earth is flat.

I'd agree Fischer had an aptitude for chess far greater than most people. Genius, I'm not sure.

If a darts player can be a genius, then certainly Fischer was. But it seems to me that the requirement for originality and creative a bit less clear, if I look at how genius defined here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius. I think the received opinion of Fischer now is that he was of the sportsman type, like Lasker, Karpov and Carlsen, a person primarily motivated by winning. For me genius sits easier with the artists, even if their results not as consistent.

Nick Ivell
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun May 02, 2021 2:34 pm

Interesting point, Paul.

At Cambridge I had a passing acquaintance with Richard Borcherds, one of the most talented people at the university.

He had been a promising player as a junior, but gave chess up, I suspect because he disliked the sporting element.

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