Carlsen's ranking of world champions

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Matthew Turner
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:15 am

Paul Bloom wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:44 am
Matthew Turner wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:24 am
Nick Ivell wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:14 am
I think we can certainly say that Fischer was a genius.
Why is Fischer more of a genius than Alekhine, Botvinnik or Karpov?

We have the Alekhine opening, you can play in the style of Botvinnik. Can I play the Fischer opening or play in the style of Fischer?
well We Have fisher timings on the clock I think that is more of an influence than any one opening and you could argue that the exchange variation of the Spanish was made really popular by fisher remember he thrashed Larsen who was 3rd best in the world 6.0 now that is a genius can you imagine Carlsen beating Liren Ding or Nepomniachtci by that kind of score no doubt in my mind that Fisher was a genius mad but a genius
Paul,
I think you make some excellent point there.
1. Fischer timings have certainly had a huge effect on chess and if Fischer was responsible for their introduction then that would be an enormous influence on the game. I genuinely don't know how important Fischer was in that process.

2. World Champions will play openings and that will popularise them. Did chess develop much as a result of Fischer playing the exchange Spanish (our understanding of the relative merits of the Bishop and Knight for example)?

3. Beating a top player in a match 6-0 is incredibly impressive and as I said before there really are no parallels to that. Could Carlsen, do that today - no, because the players have supercomputers. Could he beat Ding or Nepomniatchchi 6-0 in a match, if they didn't have computers, well yes. That is because it is win or go home, so if win game 1 with Black, suddenly an absolute shellacking becomes a very real possibility.

Most people would say that becoming World Chess Champion is an incredible intellectual achievement deserving of the epithet genius - fair enough. I am not sure how you elevate one World Champion over another.

You could make the same argument about Nobel prize winners.

Personally, I use the word genius very sparingly, so that people like Demis Hassabis or Amartya Sen really stand out.

Joseph Conlon
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Joseph Conlon » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:17 am

I think the comparison with Nobel Prize winners is interesting - but I think there is a lot more variation there. I see Nobel Prize winners as a bit like footballing heroes. There are some who transcend the subject, who are truly great thinkers with multiple deep contributions in many areas. There are others who were just in the right place at the right time, with the knee stuck out to score the winning goal in injury time in the cup final, and could otherwise have had quite ordinary careers.

With chess world champions, I think it is hard to get there by luck. Anyone who gets to be world champion is a great player, and the only discussion is about different degrees of greatness.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:42 pm

"With chess world champions, I think it is hard to get there by luck. Anyone who gets to be world champion is a great player, and the only discussion is about different degrees of greatness."

Yes - good point about the Nobel too. Usually nowadays, the scientific ones rely on a huge team of people all of whom have contributed in some way, and how do you select the one or two you want to honour? The Peace Prize is all over the place. When Barack Obama got it shortly after becoming President, I thought, "Why? You haven't done anything yet." Happily, in his autobiography, he says he thought that too.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Matthew Turner » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:02 am

I am a huge fan of Magnus Carlsen and I would certainly describe him as a sporting great who you could talk about alongside Michael Schumacher, Tom Brady, Michael Van Gerwen or Dan Carter. However, when I think about Carlsen, genius isn't a word that springs readily to mind. If you sat down a group of chess players for half an hour and asked them to name 5 chess players who were genii, I am not sure that Carlsen's name would appear that often.

The words flawed and genius often go together, so to get you thinking I'll offer you
Ivanchuk and Rogoff

Have fun with your lists :)

Nick Ivell
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Nick Ivell » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:36 am

The word genius is a bit vague, but I would certainly include Carlsen in the list, along with Capablanca, Tal, Fischer and Kasparov. There are others, but those five spring most readily to mind.

Gordon Morse
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Gordon Morse » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:37 am

I had never heard of Dan Carter or Michael Van Gerwen so had to look up who they are! It just shows we all have different interests.

As for 'genii' - this comment probably belongs in the English Language section of this site but a number of websites discuss the plural of genius, including this one:

https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... a-sentence

I particularly like the comment from one poster that you use genii instead of geniuses when you don't want to be easily understood!
I was a victim of a series of accidents, as are we all.

NickFaulks
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:42 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:02 am
The words flawed and genius often go together, so to get you thinking I'll offer you Ivanchuk and Rogoff
What has Ken Rogoff done to fall into that category?
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JustinHorton
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:43 am

Nick Ivell wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:36 am
The word genius is a bit vague
Well yes
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Matthew Turner
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Matthew Turner » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:52 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:42 am
Matthew Turner wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:02 am
The words flawed and genius often go together, so to get you thinking I'll offer you Ivanchuk and Rogoff
What has Ken Rogoff done to fall into that category?
It appears I might have failed in your case

NickFaulks
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:16 am

Does anyone else know?
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:32 pm

Maybe the Rogoff "genius" referred to does not mean his chess ability?
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NickFaulks
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:05 pm

I realise he is a world class monetary economist.
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by Paul Cooksey » Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:49 pm

Interesting to hear Carlsen's views. Probably more revealing about him than the people he is assessing. He seems to be using genius as a synonym of natural ability rather than overall strength.

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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by MJMcCready » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:46 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:49 pm
Interesting to hear Carlsen's views. Probably more revealing about him than the people he is assessing. He seems to be using genius as a synonym of natural ability rather than overall strength.
Yes I noticed that. Not sure how seriously we are meant to take it all, it doesn't give the impression of something being thought through much.

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Re: Carlsen's ranking of world champions

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:46 pm

Gordon Morse wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:37 am
I had never heard of Dan Carter or Michael Van Gerwen so had to look up who they are! It just shows we all have different interests.
In my case it was Tom Brady and Michael Van Gerwen of whom I had not heard.

I am waiting for someone to come on here and say that they had heard of three of them, but not Michael Schumacher.

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