Takeback requests in online games

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MartinCarpenter
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:41 pm

That (happily hypothetical!) would make me dream of the chess equivalent of procedural penalties in bridge :)

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:08 pm

I remember once using a dimly-remembered bridge rule to settle a question in pairs chess: what should the arbiter rule if a player shouts out a move while it's their partner's turn? My ruling was that the opposition could choose to insist on the move's being played or insist that it not be.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:02 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:47 pm
Black blunders with ... Nd7. White plays Qd6+, then asks for a takeback on the grounds that it was a mouseslip and he was in the act of playing Qxd7 Mate.

Consider your reaction to this request.
My reaction would be that Qd6+ is a very plausible move and not at all the kind of thing we are thinking of
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:28 pm

Have to agree there.

Of course the banter scenario here is White means to play Qd6+, but instead plays Qd7 and - not seeing it is mate - claims a mouseslip :D
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:09 pm

Hi David,

Qd6+ is not a losing blunder and still keeps the win on the board, but it misses mate in one.



Hypothetical Situation.

Qd6+ was a mouse slip (that is a clumsy word - I bet the Germans have a great name for it.)
would you ask for a take-back, would you as Black allow it?

As Black I might resign before answering The position looks bust, drop it and start again. (After Qd6+ what did Black play. Kd8! )

As White I'd lose on time as I went in search of another mouse having just thrown the current one against the wall. :D

I've still not played a move on Lichess, nor have I watched a single episode of 'Queen's Gambit.'
I think I am protesting about something but cannot think what....'what have you got?'

David Sedgwick
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:25 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:02 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:47 pm
Black blunders with ... Nd7. White plays Qd6+, then asks for a takeback on the grounds that it was a mouseslip and he was in the act of playing Qxd7 Mate.

Consider your reaction to this request.
My reaction would be that Qd6+ is a very plausible move and not at all the kind of thing we are thinking of
So you would refuse a takeback request, on the grounds that you did not accept that Qd6+ was a mouseslip?

But in the earlier example you would accept that Qd7+ was a mouseslip for Qd8 mate, even though the hand movement is virtually identical in the two cases?

I think that it's preferable not to allow takebacks except in training and in beginners' games.

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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:35 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:09 pm

Qd6+ is not a losing blunder and still keeps the win on the board, but it misses mate in one.

----

As Black I might resign before answering The position looks bust, drop it and start again. (After Qd6+ what did Black play. Kd8! )
Black, Richard James, played ... Kf7, and is still in the game.

I played poorly thereafter, but not absurdly so.

https://lichess.org/lQtFqtkK/white

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JustinHorton
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:41 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:25 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:02 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:47 pm
Black blunders with ... Nd7. White plays Qd6+, then asks for a takeback on the grounds that it was a mouseslip and he was in the act of playing Qxd7 Mate.

Consider your reaction to this request.
My reaction would be that Qd6+ is a very plausible move and not at all the kind of thing we are thinking of
So you would refuse a takeback request, on the grounds that you did not accept that Qd6+ was a mouseslip?
On the grounds that it's not an obvious mouselip, and that if it is, it's not a mouseslip that causes an absurd and game-spoiling move to be played. There's no problem playing on from there.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Alex McFarlane
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:06 pm

Player 1: "Oops a mouse slip, may I take the move back?
Player 2: "I wouldn't want to win like that. Please do."
Player 1 (later in the game): "Oh dear, I'm very clumsy today. That's another mouse slip. I'll retake it if you don't mind."
Player 2: "Go ahead"
Player 2: "Oh dear, now it's my turn to let go too early. May we go back?"
Player 1: "This is happening far too often. This is the third time in this game alone. No, I think we have to draw the line somewhere."

A very old, and very bad joke. But it does illustrate another problem with taking back mouse slips. Where do you draw the line?

Imagine in a similar example to the one given by David, the problems that could have arisen if one player had allowed a take-back in a level position but the other then asked for it where it would change the course of the game.

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John Upham
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by John Upham » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:47 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:09 pm


Qd6+ was a mouse slip (that is a clumsy word - I bet the Germans have a great name for it.)

Mausrutsch
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:38 pm

Thanks John.

Not as exciting a word as I hoped for. I messed about with the google English - German translator.
Mouse Error/Blunder = Mausfehler and Mouse jump = Maussprung. In Welsh it is a 'Slip Llygoden'
I then of course went through all countries one by one. The best I could find was Corsican = 'Slip di Mouse'

Hi David,

I knew Black would play Kf7. Thought f4 would have just hammered through. Apparently not.

The solution to Slip de Mouse is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoRW4WzagB4

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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Paul McKeown » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:51 pm

John Upham wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:47 pm
Geoff Chandler wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:09 pm

Qd6+ was a mouse slip (that is a clumsy word - I bet the Germans have a great name for it.)
Mausrutsch
That is very literal, "Maus" = "mouse", "rutschen" = "to slip" or "to slide".

Some Germans wish others "Einen guten Rutsch" as they slide into the New Year. It has never been clear (to me at least) what the roots for this particular alternative to "Gutes Neues Jahr" are.

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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Paul McKeown » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:54 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:59 pm
most sites allow to move the pieces by 2 clicks rather than drag and drop, should reasonably limit mistakes.
Until I recently replaced an old and failing mouse, I was plagued by mouse slips, and in desperation had taken to use this two clicks
method (click on the origin, click on the destination). It is horribly slow and a guaranteed loss in any time scramble, unfortunately.

Paul McKeown
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Paul McKeown » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:58 pm

[Interesting take in German on this very theme of how to handle mouse slips:

https://qastack.com.de/chess/8299/accid ... line-chess

The discussion is not so very different from the one here.

Eric Gardiner
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Eric Gardiner » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:51 pm

Some interesting points have been made although it seems like there is not yet a convention or consensus about when takeback requests are acceptable. I did wonder how often they are used as a form of gamesmanship or distraction! My own preference would be to never make or grant takeback requests in serious games (I'm aware that there is a point of view that no online games are serious!). So if I returned to play on Lichess, I'd set my preference to only allow takebacks in casual games as a couple of posters have suggested.
Graham Borrowdale wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:54 am
What I have seen in arena games is a player ‘passing’ in the face of the opponent’s obvious mouse slip. So white plays Qd7, obviously intending Qxd8, so black plays, say Kh8, allowing white to continue with Qd7xd8.
That's intriguing - I haven't seen that. But what if there was no obvious passing move? Or it took some time to find a sensible one?

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