Takeback requests in online games

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Eric Gardiner
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Takeback requests in online games

Post by Eric Gardiner » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:49 am

I've stopped playing online but still watch games from time to time. I wondered what rules and conventions currently apply to takeback requests in online play? A forum search for "takeback" gave me this recent post suggesting that different competitions apply different rules. My impression is that takeback requests (e.g. for mouselips) aren't made in games between top level GMs but I don't know if they are explicitly forbidden. I have however noticed a couple of takeback requests in games from the 4NCL Online congresses and team events played on Lichess. This surprised me as I'd previously assumed that they would be forbidden in a serious competition.

When I did play online last year, I only made takeback requests in a couple of training (although rated) games with people I knew. In all cases, I was better but they blundered which would have put an abrupt end to the games. So I made a takeback request explaining why in the chat window.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:57 am

I think this comment from Lawrence Cooper re: The European Club Cup gives a pretty good answer to this question

"At the captain's meeting it (allowing premoves) was put to a vote (along with auto queen) which resulted in 72% being in favour. The other vote was if to allow takeback requests. 80% voted against."

Eric Gardiner
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Eric Gardiner » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm

Well actually it was that quote which is in my link which raised further questions for me ...

It sounds like there is no general rule prohibiting takebacks. If this is correct, then you have questions of convention: under what circumstances is it OK to ask for or give takebacks? How many times can you ask for one during a game and so on?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:12 pm

If there's not a rule in any given competition, there ought to be. Otherwise all the pressure will be on the player who is being asked for one.
"Do you play chess?"
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Matthew Turner
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:16 pm

Eric,
Apologies I hadn't realised that you had linked to Lawrence's comment.
I think most players accept that mouseslips are just part of the game and it is easiest just not to bother with takebacks.

I think it is implicit that if you ask for takebacks then you should also accept (reasonable) ones and not be offended if your opponent refuses. That being the case I think takebacks can be part of the game without the need for any set conventions.

As far as I can remember I've never asked for a takeback or accepted one.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:42 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:12 pm
If there's not a rule in any given competition, there ought to be. Otherwise all the pressure will be on the player who is being asked for one.
I think this pinpoints one of the main problems - if an otherwise competent opponent moves his queen from d1 to d7, where it can be captured, instead of exchanging it for my queen on d8 [which was evidently the intention] then it's an obvious mouseslip and many of us would feel reluctant to take advantage. However, there's then the related problem where someone makes a move which isn't self-evidently a mouseslip, perhaps falling into the "maybe it is, maybe it isn't" category. How obvious does the 'mouseslip' then have to be to warrant a takeback? Rather than go down that road, I think I'd agree with Matthew [albeit reluctantly, as I've said] in disallowing takebacks.

MSoszynski
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by MSoszynski » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:48 pm

Chess.com simply does not allow takebacks in rated games.
In Lichess under your own Preferences, subsection "Game behavior", it is possible to set "Takebacks (with opponent approval): Never / Always / In casual games only".

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:36 pm

Ray Keene touched on this at the beginning of the year.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11399&p=258337&hili ... es#p258337

"These game-ruining interventions occur when a player’s computer mouse accidentally deposits a piece on an unintended square
and the move is an obvious blunder. I now propose that, following the appeals model for tennis, that all players should be permitted
three “mousetake” retractions per game. This measure would elevate the status of online chess and avoid games being wrecked by
inadvertent silicon intervention. I hope that FIDÉ (the World Chess Federation) and major sponsors are listening!"

Maybe (just maybe) allow one - you have to hit say 'F9' within 5 seconds. (and you lose 10-25 seconds). But you can only do it once.

I'm a frequent 'mouse slipper' and just live with them. Of course if you are getting beat you just
hang your Queen then forget you were getting completely outplayed and blame it on a mouse slip.

I see from the above link that MJM wants 'touch move' if you hover your mouse pointer over a pawn or piece.
That would be fun.

Paul McKeown
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:25 pm

I would be happy to permit takebacks, and used to do so. However, I have noticed that in doing so, my opponent's seem generous with their requests and niggardly with their acceptances. So I packed it in as a bad idea.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:51 pm

If we're discussing personal policies in casual games - I allow them for fingerslips but not for blunders. I also ask for them on the same basis. A lot of people ask for them when they've made bad mistakes and instantly seen this, which personally I find odd, but then again maybe a lot of people consider that casual internet chess isn't serious OTB chess and so they develop their own ideas about what's good practice or good etiquette.
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Adam Raoof
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:54 pm

It is simple. You should never ask for a takeback, as a refusal often offends. If an opponent calls the arbiter on Tornelo and asks them to permit his opponent to take back his move, I have generally agreed in unrated events. In a rated event I would have to say no.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:02 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:54 pm
It is simple. You should never ask for a takeback, as a refusal often offends.
No it's not simple, provided you're prepared to be refused and not offended.

(I wanted to add - in my view mouseslips and fingerslips are a relatively serious problem in online games. There's not really an OTB equivalent, and we can't always transfer the assumptions and etiquette we bring from OTB into online.)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Matthew Turner
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:19 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:54 pm
It is simple. You should never ask for a takeback, as a refusal often offends.
I had thought of saying something similar. I think it is a reference to the sign you used to see in shops

"Please don't ask for credit as refusal often offends"

I don't think it is meant to be taken literally at face value as Justin has done.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:24 pm

Fair enough, but the point to be made is perhaps more the general one in my bracket.
"Do you play chess?"
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Chris Bernard
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Re: Takeback requests in online games

Post by Chris Bernard » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:05 pm

I reckon it is up to each player to decide for themselves how to handle this. You may allow the take-back to be sporting. Or you may take the view that wisdom comes through suffering and you are helping your opponent wise up to the problem by refusing. Mouse-slips can be due to a poor track-pad, a faulty mouse, Hiccups, using a mobile phone to play or a host of other operator errors ie the lazy waving a piece around choosing a best move and accidently clicking. My advice is you should not to pick up a piece without knowing where it is going and don’t use a trackpad/finger movement screens. With Lichesss you can change your take back settings here :

https://lichess.org/account/preferences/game-behavior

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