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Arbiting question on 50 move rule
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:58 am
by Joseph Conlon
A question arising from my event on Monday that I ended up not having to resolve, but I was wondering what I should do if it had come to it.
The event was a junior rapidplay, 20+10 time control. In the top section one of the games reached K+Q vs K+R. Both players were either not recording or had never been recording. They were moving too fast for me to record but I was ticking on a scoresheet to keep count of the number of moves.
As it happened, after about 25 moves of this the Queen forked the King and Rook and the game shortly concluded.
The question is, if had got beyond 50 moves, what should happen? If it gets to 75 I step in and stop the game.
Between 50 and 75 moves, could the player with a rook have claimed a draw based on me ticking the moves off? If so, are they entitled to ask me how many moves have been played or ask me to notify them once 50 moves of the endgame have elapsed? And, in order to claim, do they need to get a scoresheet and, after not recording the whole game, write a move down?
Re: Arbiting question on 50 move rule
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:54 am
by Roger de Coverly
Joseph Conlon wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:58 am
Both players were either not recording or had never been recording. They were moving too fast for me to record but I was ticking on a scoresheet to keep count of the number of moves.
If you had been using one of the more recent designs of DGT clock, they record the number of times they are pressed regardless of whether they have any use for it. You would however have to stop the clock in order to check what it recorded. Details of which buttons to press and in what order are contained in the DGT instruction manual.
Re: Arbiting question on 50 move rule
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:10 am
by Joseph Conlon
Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:54 am
If you had been using one of the more recent designs of DGT clock, they record the number of times they are pressed regardless of whether they have any use for it. You would however have to stop the clock in order to check what it recorded. Details of which buttons to press and in what order are contained in the DGT instruction manual.
I think for that to be useful I or the players would need to know at which move of the game the 50-move count started, i.e. when they reached K+Q vs K+R?
Re: Arbiting question on 50 move rule
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:20 am
by Kevin Thurlow
"The question is, if had got beyond 50 moves, what should happen? If it gets to 75 I step in and stop the game."
Yes
"Between 50 and 75 moves, could the player with a rook have claimed a draw based on me ticking the moves off?" - No
"If so, are they entitled to ask me how many moves have been played or ask me to notify them once 50 moves of the endgame have elapsed?" - they can ask, but it's best that you don't tell them!
" And, in order to claim, do they need to get a scoresheet and, after not recording the whole game, write a move down?" - they need to record the whole game (or the 50 moves), but obviously at speed that's difficult!
You can get little hand-held devices (where you press a button and the total increases), which is a bit easier than using a scoresheet. I think David Sedgwick would know the source of these.
I think you handled the situation very well.
Re: Arbiting question on 50 move rule
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:48 am
by Roger de Coverly
Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:20 am
- they need to record the whole game (or the 50 moves), but obviously at speed that's difficult!
If you are claiming that at least fifty moves have elapsed since the last pawn move or capture, why do you need to know what these moves were? Even without using the clock counter, you could have a score that recorded the move number where the last pawn move or capture took place and ticked moves thereafter. That's not a solution which would work for rapidplay because no score need be recorded, but it's an option for evening league play with the increasingly popular ten second increment time control.
Re: Arbiting question on 50 move rule
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:58 am
by David Sedgwick
Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:20 am
You can get little hand-held devices (where you press a button and the total increases), which is a bit easier than using a scoresheet. I think David Sedgwick would know the source of these.
Alex Holowczak told me about them.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=finger+cou ... doa-p_1_14
They are designed for use as lap counters in athletics, where you only have to press the counter every 60 - 90 seconds. I have to confess that I struggle to keep up when 75 moves are being made at blitz speed.
For anyone involved with swimming, there is a waterproof version.
Re: Arbiting question on 50 move rule
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:28 pm
by Ian Thompson
David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:58 am
They are designed for use as lap counters in athletics, where you only have to press the counter every 60 - 90 seconds.
You can get tally counters for counting people in, and out, of places that are designed to be pressed very frequently. I saw staff using them a few months ago to count the number of people entering, and leaving, a shopping centre, and individual shops, so they could limit the number inside at once.
Re: Arbiting question on 50 move rule
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:16 pm
by Adam Raoof
Joseph Conlon wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:58 am
A question arising from my event on Monday that I ended up not having to resolve, but I was wondering what I should do if it had come to it.
The event was a junior rapidplay, 20+10 time control. In the top section one of the games reached K+Q vs K+R. Both players were either not recording or had never been recording. They were moving too fast for me to record but I was ticking on a scoresheet to keep count of the number of moves.
As it happened, after about 25 moves of this the Queen forked the King and Rook and the game shortly concluded.
The question is, if had got beyond 50 moves, what should happen? If it gets to 75 I step in and stop the game.
YES
Between 50 and 75 moves, could the player with a rook have claimed a draw based on me ticking the moves off?
YES
If so, are they entitled to ask me how many moves have been played or ask me to notify them once 50 moves of the endgame have elapsed?
NO
And, in order to claim, do they need to get a scoresheet and, after not recording the whole game, write a move down?
NO
Re: Arbiting question on 50 move rule
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:02 pm
by PeterFinn
So if you make an incorrect 50 move rule claim you don't get told how many moves it's been? If you're defending say rook against rook and bishop what's to stop the defender making several false claims (on moves 35, 38, 44, 46 and 48 say) in quick succession? The extra time really doesn't help the attacking side but the pause in play to adjust the clock might even help the defending side.