Invisible pieces

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Helen Milligan
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:01 pm

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Helen Milligan » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:05 am

I didn't write the article. However, it certainly does reflect my own personal experience. I understand 100% why the author has chosen to remain anonymous - the discussion here and in the lichess thread should make that crystal clear. I have, on occasion, tried to put forward a similar point of view - only to receive insults and sneers. I'm stubborn enough to keep trying, in a small way in a small country (NZL), where I'm an arbiter, organiser, and president of one of the largest chess clubs.

I'm pleased to see that there are a few guys on this thread talking sense. What do we do to fix the attitude of the others? I have no idea. In terms of fixing FIDE's attitude, though, I have a suggestion. Listen to GM Judit Polgar. She makes astute comments.

David Sedgwick
Posts: 4243
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:19 am

Welcome to the Forum, Helen.

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 1135
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:26 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:19 am
Welcome to the Forum, Helen.
Seconded.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3318
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:13 pm

This piece is flagged up on AOL today

https://slate.com/technology/2020/12/wh ... obal-en-GB
Last edited by Matthew Turner on Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mick Norris
Posts: 8512
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:09 pm

Well worth a read
Let me state unequivocally that there is currently zero evidence for biological differences in chess ability between the genders
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Simon Rogers
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:30 pm

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Simon Rogers » Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:28 pm

Helen Milligan wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:05 am
I didn't write the article. However, it certainly does reflect my own personal experience. I understand 100% why the author has chosen to remain anonymous - the discussion here and in the lichess thread should make that crystal clear. I have, on occasion, tried to put forward a similar point of view - only to receive insults and sneers. I'm stubborn enough to keep trying, in a small way in a small country (NZL), where I'm an arbiter, organiser, and president of one of the largest chess clubs.

I'm pleased to see that there are a few guys on this thread talking sense. What do we do to fix the attitude of the others? I have no idea. In terms of fixing FIDE's attitude, though, I have a suggestion. Listen to GM Judit Polgar. She makes astute comments.
Hi Helen.
Welcome to the forum.
Good to see so many OTB tournaments taking place in New Zealand. I've noticed the Calendar is filling up nicely for next year.
I have been posting a lot of the events down under in the International News Category.
Say hello to Ben Hague for me, next time you see him.
Ask him about the Lancashire junior team visit to Leningrad back in July 1990.
Me and Ben were part of the same team along with two other forum members: Dave Clayton and Paul Heaton.

Nigel Short
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:14 am

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Nigel Short » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:30 pm

I'm pleased to see that there are a few guys on this thread talking sense. What do we do to fix the attitude of the others? I have no idea. In terms of fixing FIDE's attitude, though, I have a suggestion. Listen to GM Judit Polgar. She makes astute comments.
[/quote]

With all due respect to Dr Helen Milligan, "FIDE OR Judit Polgar" is a false dichotomy. As an Honorary Vice-President of FIDE, Judit is a greatly respected and valued member of the Council. The idea that somehow her views and the views of the rest of FIDE are sharply at odds in simply incorrect, and does not reflect reality. To give a trivial example - yesterday, In the FIDE Council WhatsApp group, at least two dozen messages were either sent by, or directly addressed to Judit. There was no disagreement on any single point.

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 7626
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:15 pm

10 pages of discussion (so far) and Nigel Short's name popping up. The title of the thread made me think it was about some abtruse concept in fairy chess or a similar area of chess problems or chess variants, but I see it is about the experience of women in chess. A very well-written article. It is good to see these issues getting aired and hopefully some progress being made, and attitudes being changed.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2466
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:22 pm

Hi Helen,

Glad you could happen along.

" I have a suggestion. Listen to GM Judit Polgar. She makes astute comments."

No Judit is the often quoted exception, her experiences are well documented and often allude to the very top level.

They/we/me/them/us need to listen to you, someone who is at the coalface.

The people who really need educating do not frequent here, the real user name policy scares them off.
So why not knock up an article for NIC. Give it loads of kick and open some eyes.

Of course you will end up getting quoted (or misquoted - see below) by 'experts' but
that is to be expected as those in the academic world must surely be fed up using
(and twisting ) the same old Fischer, Kapsarov and Short quotes.

(did the Duck ever turn up?)

Hi Mathew,

Yet again Nigel's words and views have been bent to fit.

Nowhere does Nigel say: “Men are hardwired to be better chess players than women.”
That was a newspaper headline from some bored hack struggling for copy.

Nigel says: "Men and women’s brains are hard-wired very differently, so why should they function in the same way?"
Followed by two non-chess examples, one about emotional intelligence and one about parking a car.

And tagging onto a non-quote with with a tweaked quote is totally misleading.
Nigel does not say '“you have to gracefully accept that.” Can't these people cut and paste from the source.
(or maybe they choose not too because it does not actually say what they want to use.)
I got as far as being to told to imagine people wearing blue and green hats. What a load of codswallop.

Maybe we should just gracefully accept the fact that Nigel is forever doomed to be misquoted.

(And Bobby Fischer was not the world champion in 1962, he was an 18/19 year old teenager.)

Matt Bridgeman
Posts: 621
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:21 pm

Without immediately jumping down my throat Nigel, how are things between yourself and Susan Polgar these days? I must confess I didn’t know a great deal about what looks like a bit of feud back in 2015, as I was moving back from Australia to the UK at that time. Susan seems a very important figure in woman’s and junior chess. Have the bridges been mended over the past 5 years now you are such an important figure in FIDE?

https://chess24.com/en/read/news/nigel- ... gar-at-war

Helen Milligan
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:01 pm

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Helen Milligan » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:22 pm

GM Judit Polgar Tweeted "If the coaches see a talented seven-year-old girl, please don't tell them that they can become the world champion between ladies. Tell them that they can be the best in the world." That is the kind of astute comment that illustrates she understands exactly the cultural disadvantages that women have - which start so very early. I have seen (and complained about) comments on social media, where a talented boy is described as next world champion and his equally talented sister as 'next women's world champion.'

Why, Geoff, should I write an article, when someone more literate and erudite than me has just written one? Listen to her! Imagine it as 'any one of us' rather than 'anonymous.'

Also - no duck, Geoff. Thanks to others for their welcome. Yes, we have chess and life as normal in NZ at the moment but it hangs by a thread, with the virus at our borders. I can't organise the club's planned Training Tourneys (with foreign coaches) or contemplate IM norm round-robins. The NZ Championship (with Ben Hague as favourite) starts next week with no players from abroad.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2466
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:55 pm

Hi Helen,

".... when someone more literate and erudite than me has just written one?
Listen to her! Imagine it as 'any one of us' rather than 'anonymous.'

It's a step in the right direction but needs named back up. It belongs in NIC, will they take
it anonymously , they might if the author comes forward but asks to remain anonymous. They might.
(but I doubt if they add 'try to imagine this was written by a woman.')

And don't put yourself down, you are more than capable of putting the case forward. If you are worried
about flak, that I can understand, but someone, not just Judit, has to put their head up over the barricade.
If not then they (who ever 'they' are) win and nothing changes.
( you don't have to go into details but did you receive any nonsense from your ChessBase post?)

It needs someone else to step into the light, Judit has carried the torch long enough.
Even you fell back on one of her tweets. She cannot pass it to Ms or Mrs or even Mr Anonymous.

The article is currently hot, it has legs, needs named backed up, Nigel's 2015 article said that
female readership (subscribers?) are 1% at NIC, of course this has probably risen but whoever writes a follow up
article will hit the right audience and not have to face a bunch of howling goons on a nik based open forum.
I was not one of them - I put my name to everything I write, my ego would have it no other way.

(Apparently the Duck was stopped at the border because the South African paperwork had
listed as the contents. 'A Duck'. by the S.A. lad, he was told he would get it back but it never arrived.
For two years it went all over the world, it appears it has been impounded by some humourless jobs worth. )
Last edited by Geoff Chandler on Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nick Grey
Posts: 1760
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:19 pm

Thanks Helen. So many chats at in a chess shop near Olympia. I have bought your chess book so many times for boys and girls and now for a 60 plus woman.

It will be good to show her the women's views and I will ignore many of the male views as I find offensive.

Also at work now have 10 women wanting to play chess because of The Queen's Gambit. The end scenes are the happiest I have in 2020.

Lets have a better discussion.

Andrew Martin
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:37 pm

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Andrew Martin » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:12 am

A talented seven year old girl ( or boy) should be left well alone to enjoy the game and not hot-housed by suggesting that she ( or he) can be the best in the world. That is, if you want the kid to have any sort of normal life.

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 1135
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Invisible pieces

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:36 am

Andrew Martin wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:12 am
A talented seven year old girl ( or boy) should be left well alone to enjoy the game and not hot-housed by suggesting that she ( or he) can be the best in the world. That is, if you want the kid to have any sort of normal life.
Absolutely right. It's a slight diversion from the topic but I'd be interested to know how exactly other coaches respond to the parents of an obviously talented youngster, boy or girl, who ask the question - as most interested parents do - "How is my child getting on?". I've always found it tricky hitting the right balance between praising the child's ability without creating expectations which will almost certainly prove to be premature.

Post Reply