Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Mick Norris
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:29 am

Simon Rogers wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:40 pm
SORRY David. I was only joking about Stewart Rueben.
Other people joke about his typing errors on the forum.
I have met Stewart a number of occasions and have a lot of time for the guy.
I enjoy reading his contributions to the forum.
I don't want to fall out with anyone on the forum.
I don't have left wing or right wing views because:
Everyone is equal
ALL LIVES MATTER
Hi Simon, I get that you don't want to fall out with anyone, and I don't want to fall out with you, but the point of the current situation is to make people think, and hopefully realise that things need to change

Whereas everyone may be equal to you, and all lives may matter to you, that isn't the case in general

For example, I'm 55 and white, and I've never been subject to racist abuse; my daughter is 15, and mixed race, and she has been subject to racist abuse more than once (she probably wouldn't tell me each time it happens); this is wrong, this needs to change

This is why Black Lives Matter is important, and all lives matter is just diluting and deflecting the problem we have now, and have had for centuries; it is why statues have to come down now (they have been discussing it for 10 years in Bristol :roll: ), buildings and streets renamed, why racist views need to be challenged and changed in the UK, as well as the world in general

Chess in the UK does have a bigger problem with sexism than racism, but it doesn't mean there's no problem with racism
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Tim Spanton
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Tim Spanton » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:29 am

Action being taken against anti-German and anti-West Indian racism in Fawlty Towers:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53020335

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:25 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:29 am
Chess in the UK does have a bigger problem with sexism than racism, but it doesn't mean there's no problem with racism
(my emphasis)

Leaving the first bit for another - I’m not sure I entirely agree - it is notable that a number of contributors to this thread not only have nothing to say on topic but are working very hard to post off topic ‘contributions’.

Tim Spanton
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Tim Spanton » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:33 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:25 am
Mick Norris wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:29 am
Chess in the UK does have a bigger problem with sexism than racism, but it doesn't mean there's no problem with racism
(my emphasis)

Leaving the first bit for another - I’m not sure I entirely agree - it is notable that a number of contributors to this thread not only have nothing to say on topic but are working very hard to post off topic ‘contributions’.
I fear you are being rather complacent if you think chess does not have a problem with sexism. Without naming names, I can think of tournaments that offer special prizes based solely on gender, other tournaments that reduce entry fees if a person's gender matches the organisers' prejudices, and organisations that appoint people whose sole job is to look after the chess interests of a particular gender.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:04 pm

Tim there, demonstrating the point made in the post before his
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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Gerard Killoran
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Gerard Killoran » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:50 pm

Re Fawlty Towers

To quote something on Twitter:

1) It’s not because of the war
2) It’s about repeated use of the N word
3) BBC edited the offending scene in 2013
4) Cleese fully approved of it
5) Netflix & UKTV were airing unedited version
6) Edited version will likely be used in future

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:10 pm

You and your pesky facts spoiling the narrative. This will never do!
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:47 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:25 am
Mick Norris wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:29 am
Chess in the UK does have a bigger problem with sexism than racism, but it doesn't mean there's no problem with racism
(my emphasis)

Leaving the first bit for another - I’m not sure I entirely agree - it is notable that a number of contributors to this thread not only have nothing to say on topic but are working very hard to post off topic ‘contributions’.
Just briefly, the reason why I’m not entirely sure I agree with the notion that sexism is a greater problem in chess than racism ...

Firstly, ranking disadvantage, regardless of context, is always going to be a tricky business. Potentially analogous to discussing whether it’s a case of being run over by a mini metro or a bus.

The main reason, though, is that chessers are usually very keen to talk about how the game is unique in that young and old/men and women/anyone and anyone can play against each other on an equal footing with only chess ability (and perhaps a spot of lock here and there) deciding the result. This is true, but considerably less attention is paid to the fact that whilst anyone can play the game, those of us who do play competitive chess are hugely disproprotionately likely to be - like me - male, white, middle class, getting older.

It depends on exactly what we're talking about when we say, 'racism' of course. Clearly a lot of the reasons why the game is so spectacularly lacking in diversity come from society-level factors that none of us as individuals can control. However, given the very obvious lack of diversity, given how little the matter is talked about and - particularly - given the restistance that springs up from some quarters whenever the issue is raised, I’m not sure I’d want to be quite so definitive in deciding the extent of one problem against another.

Mick Norris
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:54 pm

Hi Jonathan, I'm not arguing about there being a problem with both. I agree with you

I should perhaps have said that it appears sexism is a bigger problem, maybe because I've been told about sexist behaviour much more

In fact, the only direct query I have had was to ask me if a specific chess player was racist, rather than saying they had been subject to racism; my experience will be much more limited than yours, though, as you have interacted with many more chess people than I have
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:56 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:54 pm
Hi Jonathan, I'm not arguing about there being a problem with both.
Hi Mick - my fault. I was just quoting your post as an example of the theme since it was the first one to hand. I should have made that clear

Tomis Chagall
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Tomis Chagall » Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:00 am

Simon Rogers wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:34 pm
Everyone is equal
ALL LIVES MATTER
Have you actually read what some of us have pointed out in regard to »All Lives Matter«?
Esse quam videri - to be rather than to seem. (Marcus Tullius Cicero)

Mick Norris
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:53 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:56 am
Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:54 pm
Hi Jonathan, I'm not arguing about there being a problem with both.
Hi Mick - my fault. I was just quoting your post as an example of the theme since it was the first one to hand. I should have made that clear
No problem
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Nick Burrows
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:01 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:47 pm
considerably less attention is paid to the fact that whilst anyone can play the game, those of us who do play competitive chess are hugely disproprotionately likely to be - like me - male, white, middle class, getting older.
It depends on the tournament. My general impression is that it's not hugely disproprtionate, especially amongst junior players who are very diverse. Perhaps it's generational - much like racism, and as the years go by this will be reflected in the adult population of chess players diversifying too.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:07 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:01 am

It depends on the tournament. My general impression is that it's not hugely disproprtionate
My specific impression of Paignton last September was, ah, slightly different
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:21 am

That's partly a function of the scheduling of Paignton, mind - its being the first week of the school term results in very few junior entries (the only juniors who entered last year were from Malta).

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