Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

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Jonathan Bryant
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Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:14 pm

Boris Avrukh made the following comment on GM Pontus Carlsson’s facebook page this morning:-

"I want to hear from you one example of systematic racism, but you should find better sources than CNN trash. Yes I do think Black people have equal rights and even more than equal rights."

John McKenna

Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by John McKenna » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:47 pm

Not the best way to try to make a point by the looks of it. I doubt it came out of the blue and without seeing the facebook page (I never bother looking at any living person's, by the way) sufficient context to really understand what's going on is absent.

Whether or not people have more or less equal rights on paper is not the be-all-and-end-all in the real world.

Edit - actually I've never knowingly looked at anyone's facebook page(s).
Last edited by John McKenna on Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:02 pm

Eastern European is slightly (?) racist shocker.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

David Sedgwick
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:31 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:14 pm
Boris Avrukh made the following comment on GM Pontus Carlsson’s facebook page this morning:-

"I want to hear from you one example of systematic racism, but you should find better sources than CNN trash. Yes I do think Black people have equal rights and even more than equal rights."
It's not the sort of comment I would make to any black Grandmaster.

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:02 pm
Eastern European is slightly (?) racist shocker.
I believe that Carlsson now lives in Prague, so he may be used to it. That doesn't make it acceptable, of course.

Alan Walton
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:59 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:02 pm
Eastern European is slightly (?) racist shocker.
Isn’t Avrukh Israeli, not that that has anything to do with his comment

Mick Norris
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:03 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:59 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:02 pm
Eastern European is slightly (?) racist shocker.
Isn’t Avrukh Israeli, not that that has anything to do with his comment
Yes, born in Kazakhstan (I looked it up)
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:08 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:31 pm
It's not the sort of comment I would make to any black Grandmaster.
Quite. There’s entirely enough context to understand what Avrukh said. I’m not at ll sure I’d agree there’s such a thing as "mild" racism in any circumstances, but in any event this isn’t it.

Avrukh chose to go on to a social media page of a black chess player and, at a time when a black man’s violent death at the hands of a police officer is being questioned and protested, make a post denying that systemic racism exists.

Avrukh's post was racist.

I don’t care in the slightest whether or not that kind of exprience is common in Prague. I care how we respond to it when it happens within the chess world.

John McKenna

Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by John McKenna » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:21 pm

Thanks for making clear the way you see it, Jon.

I hope you can accept that even in a seemingly black & white picture there will probably be grey areas.

In a world of colour the real picture is much harder to make out. Everyone's picture of it is coloured by their own experiences. And, I am sure Carlsson and Avrukh have had different experiences even based on what little I know about them.

I do not see from your original quote that Avrukh makes an outright denial that "systemic racism" exists since he asks Carlsson for a "better example".

For all anyone knows Avrukh could be comparing "systematic racism" in the USA to that in more totalitarian states of the past, or present.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:44 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:21 pm
Thanks for making clear the way you see it, Jon.

I hope you can accept that even in a seemingly black & white picture there will probably be grey areas.

In a world of colour the real picture is much harder to make out. Everyone's picture of it is coloured by their own experiences. And, I am sure Carlsson and Avrukh have had different experiences even based on what little I know about them.

I do not see from your original quote that Avrukh makes an outright denial that "systemic racism" exists since he asks Carlsson for a "better example".

For all anyone knows Avrukh could be comparing "systematic racism" in the USA to that in more totalitarian states of the past, or present.
That’s very generous of spirit of you John but I think not.


Your claim about Avrukh asking for a ‘better example’ is simply untrue, btw.

J T Melsom
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by J T Melsom » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:51 pm

I don't suppose Avrukh has been directly challenged about these words? It certainly doesn't look good.
Does FIDE actually have a means to deal with racism inside or outside competition? Who would be permitted to complain?
I believe the ECF may have utilised Avrukh to coach the Olympiad team in the past. Although that came from sponsorship money, would ECF members be able to say that we didn't wish to employ Avrukh in future?
I'm just a bit unsure what the chess community can actually do.

Mick Norris
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:56 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:21 pm
I hope you can accept that even in a seemingly black & white picture there will probably be grey areas
That's pretty much the view of those who explain why my daughter has to accept racist abuse; they'll often be happy to say voting in a racist prime minister is ok too :roll:
Any postings on here represent my personal views

John McKenna

Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by John McKenna » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:04 pm

"I want to hear from you one example of systematic racism, but you should find better sources than CNN trash..."

Someone who understands racism better than me should translate - "one example of systematic racism, but you should find better sources... " for me because I do not read that as an outright denial.

To Mick M: I think you, Jon B and others are making unwarranted extrapolations here. Sweeping generalisations do not apply in every case.

John McKenna

Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by John McKenna » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:13 pm

NB: For all I know, Avrukh might be an extreme rightwinger - a supporter of Netanyahu and Trump, not to mention Boris Johnson. However, I am only going on what I read and understand from the original post.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:13 pm

He is certainly a Trump backer, in this exchange with Carlsson he also expressed his hope The Donald gets returned in a landslide this year.

Supporter of Bibi as well? More likely than not on this form.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

NickFaulks
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Re: Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:20 pm

Avrukh is certainly a supporter of Trump, although times are strange when supporting a democratically elected President makes you an extremist. If he is on the right in Israel, extreme or otherwise, then he presumably does not support Netanyahu's centrist coalition.
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