(Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Paul Bloom
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:34 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Paul Bloom » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:45 pm

Back to OTB chess it is 4NCL have announced that accommodation is now available to book provisionally on 4NCL website on a no payment no deposit basis until arrival as for political reasons the tournament will not be confirmed to go ahead until 21st June when hopefully restrictions are lifted . but for any players even slightly interested in playing at Leamington Spa it may be worth booking as rates are very good £69 single use PN and £79 for twin use PN this includes breakfast and lunch and dinner very reasonable £6 and £15 respectively . you can cancel any time free of charge but I feel if it goes ahead there may be a big demand for rooms after 21st June as that is only 3 weeks before the congress . Fair play to the 4NCL to try and get this off the ground . I would expect many of us chess player to have had our 2nd vaccination by then and some form of social distancing in place at the venue .

Wadih Khoury
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:14 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Wadih Khoury » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:25 pm

I wanted to test some ideas and see whether they would be compatible with the Phase 2 guidelines (as they currently stand, hopefully in place from April 12th).
  1. Pure junior tournaments should be ok. technically 14 players and 1 arbiter maximum per room (hence hitting the cap of 15, under all interpretations), allowing big tournaments as long as they are divided in non mingling, distinct sections.
  2. Simuls, with 1 adult playing up to 13 juniors, and 1 arbiter. Not much different than any after school indoor activity.
  3. Adult vs junior play: one team of 5 adult versus one team of 5 junior, all play all (5 rounds), plus one arbiter. Could be pushed to 6 adults/juniors, but then the number of rounds become a bit much for a week-end.
Any thoughts as to whether these ideas would work or not, and whether they are IN/OUT of guidance in your opinion and why?

As a supplementary thought, I know that many adults are a bit tired of playing so many juniors online, but would you still consider attending (and paying for) a tournament such as described in 3) in order to return to OTB?

Alex McFarlane
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Alex McFarlane » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:37 pm

How visible from the outside is the room to be used?

There could be child protection issues with one adult in a room with 14 young children and otherwise unsupervised. I would not allow one adult in a room full of children without a chaperone. This can be as much for the arbiter's protection as for the children's.

NickFaulks
Posts: 8453
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:32 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:37 pm
There could be child protection issues with one adult in a room with 14 young children and otherwise unsupervised.
I'm confused, isn't that what teachers do all the time?
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 1910
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:53 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:32 pm
Alex McFarlane wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:37 pm
There could be child protection issues with one adult in a room with 14 young children and otherwise unsupervised.
I'm confused, isn't that what teachers do all the time?
Yes, and they run that risk all the time.

User avatar
John Upham
Posts: 7179
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by John Upham » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:16 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:37 pm
How visible from the outside is the room to be used?

There could be child protection issues with one adult in a room with 14 young children and otherwise unsupervised. I would not allow one adult in a room full of children without a chaperone. This can be as much for the arbiter's protection as for the children's.
It is normal practise for a school not to supply a chaperone for a school chess club. I would welcome it (for the purposes of riot control) but It simply does not happen.
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Alex McFarlane
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Alex McFarlane » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:23 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:32 pm
I'm confused, isn't that what teachers do all the time?
Yes, but teachers and others working in schools are PVG checked or whatever the English equivalent is (DBS I think). Although far from foolproof, it gives parents some reassurance.

Teachers are also sometimes warned about pupils and will teach with the door open and make sure they are never alone with that pupil. A chess venue with the door open and parents outside is less than ideal.

Joseph Conlon
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:18 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Joseph Conlon » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:51 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:25 pm
I wanted to test some ideas and see whether they would be compatible with the Phase 2 guidelines (as they currently stand, hopefully in place from April 12th).
  1. Pure junior tournaments should be ok. technically 14 players and 1 arbiter maximum per room (hence hitting the cap of 15, under all interpretations), allowing big tournaments as long as they are divided in non mingling, distinct sections.
  2. Simuls, with 1 adult playing up to 13 juniors, and 1 arbiter. Not much different than any after school indoor activity.
  3. Adult vs junior play: one team of 5 adult versus one team of 5 junior, all play all (5 rounds), plus one arbiter. Could be pushed to 6 adults/juniors, but then the number of rounds become a bit much for a week-end.
Any thoughts as to whether these ideas would work or not, and whether they are IN/OUT of guidance in your opinion and why?

As a supplementary thought, I know that many adults are a bit tired of playing so many juniors online, but would you still consider attending (and paying for) a tournament such as described in 3) in order to return to OTB?
To me, (1) and (2) appear to be within guidance and (3) appears to be out - this is also an adult team event, which isn't allowed under Phase 2. Perhaps if all the adults were professional chess coaches and these were within a clear training structure, it might scrape in, but to me this structure appears too contrived to be viewed as a children's activity.

On adults being alone with children - I think its good practice for those involved in junior coaching/organising to have a DBS check (and if you are using a school facility they might require it) but ultimately this comes down to parental judgement (if I thought someone was dodgy, I would not be convinced by them waving a DBS certificate). Certainly e.g music teachers are regularly in 1-1 situations with children in a way that would be very unlikely at a chess tournament (and lots of parents send their children to music lessons).

NickFaulks
Posts: 8453
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:45 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:23 pm
Yes, but teachers and others working in schools are PVG checked or whatever the English equivalent is (DBS I think).
Yes of course, I've got one of them. I have no idea what I would have had to have done to be declined.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Alex McFarlane
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Alex McFarlane » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:34 pm

Not sure about a DBS check but for a PVG

a basic check, which shows unspent convictions and conditional cautions
a standard check, which shows spent and unspent convictions, cautions, reprimands and final warnings
an enhanced check, which shows the same as a standard check plus any information held by local police that’s considered relevant to the role
an enhanced check with barred lists, which shows the same as an enhanced check plus whether the applicant is on the list of people barred from doing the role

If working closely with children an enhanced check is required.

The designated person in the organisation that a person is 'working' for/in would be able to ask the authority if there was a potential problem with someone seeking work.

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 1910
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:18 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:34 pm
Not sure about a DBS check but for a PVG

a basic check, which shows unspent convictions and conditional cautions
a standard check, which shows spent and unspent convictions, cautions, reprimands and final warnings
an enhanced check, which shows the same as a standard check plus any information held by local police that’s considered relevant to the role
an enhanced check with barred lists, which shows the same as an enhanced check plus whether the applicant is on the list of people barred from doing the role

If working closely with children an enhanced check is required.

The designated person in the organisation that a person is 'working' for/in would be able to ask the authority if there was a potential problem with someone seeking work.
Similarly, in England & Wales, there are three levels of check: basic, standard and enhanced. The three levels have different eligibility requirements and reveal different information about the applicant but are broadly similar to those in Scotland, viz.

Basic: A Basic DBS Check or Basic Disclosure shows any unspent convictions or conditional cautions
Standard: A Standard Check shows any spent or unspent convictions, cautions, reprimands or warnings
Enhanced: An Enhanced Check shows any spent or unspent convictions, cautions, reprimands or warnings, as well as any other relevant information held by the applicant’s local police force.

It's worth reminding one and all that the basic check is what it says on the label - basic. As far as I'm aware, the late and unlamented Jimmy Savile would have been [and very likely was] cleared at this level. It's even possible that more rigorous checks wouldn't have detected anything amiss.

My recollection, from the time when I was undertaking sensitive work, is that "any other relevant information" included information on known unsavoury close associates - for example, if someone whose background was otherwise 'clean' was married to or had a similar close relationship with someone who was known [or strongly suspected] to be a child abuser, the enhanced check was expected to include this "information".

Jacques Parry
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:37 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Jacques Parry » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:36 am

Wadih, what are the "guidelines" you are looking at? The "roadmap" published on 22 Feb did say that in Step 2 "All children will be able to attend any indoor children’s activity, including sport, regardless of circumstance". But the regulations themselves, published on 22 March, don't include such a rule as far as I can see. They do allow (subject to certain conditions) indoor gatherings for the purpose of allowing children "to take part in any sport or other fitness related activity", but that clearly doesn't include chess. Perhaps I'm missing something? I can't believe that the Government would have quietly done a U-turn on this...

Wadih Khoury
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:14 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Wadih Khoury » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:10 am

Jacques Parry wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:36 am
Wadih, what are the "guidelines" you are looking at? The "roadmap" published on 22 Feb did say that in Step 2 "All children will be able to attend any indoor children’s activity, including sport, regardless of circumstance". But the regulations themselves, published on 22 March, don't include such a rule as far as I can see. They do allow (subject to certain conditions) indoor gatherings for the purpose of allowing children "to take part in any sport or other fitness related activity", but that clearly doesn't include chess. Perhaps I'm missing something? I can't believe that the Government would have quietly done a U-turn on this...
I am looking at the roadmap document here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... pring-2021
Published on Feb 22nd, the same day as this document that does not contain as much details and does not mention indoor children activities: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... 109cce8eae

I found the rules, updated on March 24th (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lo ... 109cce8eae) that state:
From 29 March:

you will be able to meet outdoors either in a group of 6 (from any number of households), or in a group of any size from up to 2 households (each household can include existing support bubbles, if eligible)
you will be able to take part in formally organised outdoor sports with any number of people (outdoor sports venues and facilities will be able to reopen)
childcare and supervised activities will be allowed outdoors for all children
formally organised parent and child groups will be able to take place outdoors for up to 15 attendees. Children under 5 will not be not counted in this number
There seems to be a clarification versus the original document, as they use "attendees" which indicates that in a given room there can't be more than 15 present.

Joseph Conlon
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:18 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Joseph Conlon » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:23 am

Jacques Parry wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:36 am
Wadih, what are the "guidelines" you are looking at? The "roadmap" published on 22 Feb did say that in Step 2 "All children will be able to attend any indoor children’s activity, including sport, regardless of circumstance". But the regulations themselves, published on 22 March, don't include such a rule as far as I can see. They do allow (subject to certain conditions) indoor gatherings for the purpose of allowing children "to take part in any sport or other fitness related activity", but that clearly doesn't include chess. Perhaps I'm missing something? I can't believe that the Government would have quietly done a U-turn on this...
Jacques:

when I look at

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/202 ... 364_en.pdf

and in particular page 48 which is phase 2, I see under 20(e)(ii) as part of Exception 13
Screenshot 2021-03-25 at 09.16.44.png
which to me would seem to provide what you are looking for. The legislation also seems to make clear that the parent and child groups, and their limit of 15, referred to in the roadmap are referring specifically to events organised to under 5s (as these appear specifically under Exception 14)

I would hesitate to be organising a large event (I don't think parents want it at this stage) but Exception 13 does not seem to have a numbers restriction on the number of children involved.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Jacques Parry
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:37 pm

Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Jacques Parry » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:28 am

Good spot, Joseph, but I'm not convinced. Even if the phrase "supervised activity" is, in isolation, wide enough to cover a chess tournament with an arbiter, you have to take account of the context. The rest of Exception 13 under paragraph 4 is about child care, so I think "supervised activity" is probably meant to include only activities related to child care. Maybe it has some special meaning in that context? If the intention were to allow junior competitions such as chess tournaments, I would expect it to be covered by Exception 3 under paragraph 5, which applies to junior sporting events. And we can't argue that chess is a sport (in this particular context), because Exception 3 refers to "sport or other fitness related activity", which clearly implies that (in this particular context) only fitness-related activities can be sports.

What matters for practical purposes, of course, is not what the law actually allows but what the authorities think it allows, and their view may well be based on the guidance rather than the legislation itself. I assume the Government will, before 12 April, be issuing some guidance on what the regulations say, rather than what the Government intended a month ago that they should say. It won't be accurate - it never is - but maybe it will be more important. If I were an organiser I would be asking DHSC for clarification.