(Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
John Upham
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by John Upham » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:10 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:05 am
why it is that the testing process deemed necessary for these vaccines is so radically different from the standard previously accepted by the scientific community.

Could you define what you mean by different?

Is one of the differences the pace of development? What are the others?
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John Upham
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by John Upham » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:17 am

I suggest that each chess club obtain one of these

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/scream-not-sw ... 25899.html

for September 2021 onwards.

It is a small price to pay surely?
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NickFaulks
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:28 am

John Upham wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:10 am
Is one of the differences the pace of development?
Yes, although the worst that is likely to have happened, and I'm not saying it did, is that some adult volunteers could have been exposed to greater risk than is normally deemed acceptable.

The big difference is the pace of approval. To be blunt, it looks as though some of these vaccines were effectively pre-approved.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

NickFaulks
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:33 am

John Upham wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:17 am
I suggest that each chess club obtain one of these

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/scream-not-sw ... 25899.html

for September 2021 onwards.

It is a small price to pay surely?
Looks like fun, and very Dutch, but it might be wise to wait until it gets approval.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Matthew Turner
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matthew Turner » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:47 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:28 am
John Upham wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:10 am
Is one of the differences the pace of development?
Yes, although the worst that is likely to have happened, and I'm not saying it did, is that some adult volunteers could have been exposed to greater risk than is normally deemed acceptable.

The big difference is the pace of approval. To be blunt, it looks as though some of these vaccines were effectively pre-approved.
More classic anti-vaxxer tropes. So you are saying that Phase III trials began too quickly and the vaccines might not be as effective as claimed

OK, but that still means that human trials ran for the normal length of time for vaccines and all the medical evidence says that they are extremely safe. So there is no medical reason for someone to decline a vaccine.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:57 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:05 am
I do consider that I have the right to ask why it is that the testing process deemed necessary for these vaccines is so radically different from the standard previously accepted by the scientific community.
Isn't it essentially because the government have agreed to pick up the compensation bill if something goes badly wrong? So there hasn't had to be a long list of probably worthless additional tests devised by lawyers to avoid accusations of negligence.

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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:44 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:47 am
anti-vaxxer
That's right, keep the inane insults coming. By the way, have you considered expanding your repertoire with "Covid denier"? That is very popular with the likes of Robert Jenrick.
the vaccines might not be as effective as claimed
No, that isn't the concern. The problem is that it has until now been believed that checking for any detrimental effects which might show up after a few years takes, well, a few years.

You can certainly argue that the effects of the disease on some sectors of the community are so severe that this is risk worth taking ( and why would a 95 year old be too worried about long-term effects anyway? ). You cannot argue that such risks are inconceivable.
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:50 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:57 am
Isn't it essentially because the government have agreed to pick up the compensation bill if something goes badly wrong?
Why do I not find that entirely reassuring?
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Matthew Turner
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matthew Turner » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:15 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:44 pm

No, that isn't the concern. The problem is that it has until now been believed that checking for any detrimental effects which might show up after a few years takes, well, a few years.
It sounds reasonable, but it is just is just classic ant-vaxxer language. If we wait three years to see what side effects might emerge from the vaccine, we'll have three years of evidence of exactly the same side effects, but more severe versions that emerge from the virus.
What is that you want the government to do?

Geoff Chandler
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:31 pm

Hi,

I 'was' anti second vaccine but after two weeks (the period of time they said it would kick in)
I am nearly 100% back to old self. (famous last words.)

People who have had jag protected but can still pass it on so those without the jag.
I know the door is still open on this but the jag protects you with it, it does not stop you catching it.
(how can it - it does not surround you with an invisible bubble of protection.)

Reason why jag rushed through so quick. All the red tape was cut and people involved did not stretch
it out to make more money. The medical profession runs scams just like everyone else.
(yup, no doubt about it - I am back to old self.)

Advice - get it. I am now up for the second one. Not looking forward to it, but I'll have it.

Matthew Turner
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Matthew Turner » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:36 pm

I've always said that Geoff Chandler was a top bloke who speaks a lot of sense.
(I did genuinely vote for him once as CS Player of the Year)

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Chris Goodall
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:45 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:44 pm
No, that isn't the concern. The problem is that it has until now been believed that checking for any detrimental effects which might show up after a few years takes, well, a few years.

You can certainly argue that the effects of the disease on some sectors of the community are so severe that this is risk worth taking ( and why would a 95 year old be too worried about long-term effects anyway? ). You cannot argue that such risks are inconceivable.
Can you point to a single case of that actually happening, though? A detrimental effect of any vaccine ever administered anywhere in the world, that showed up only after a few years? Bearing in mind that, yes, a population vaccinated against measles is more likely to eventually die of Alzheimer's disease than a population not vaccinated against measles, for the simple reason that they're less likely to have died of measles first.
Matthew Turner wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:15 pm
It sounds reasonable, but it is just is just classic anti-vaxxer language.
Has that tactic ever worked, Matthew? Has anyone you've called an anti-vaxxer ever clapped their hand to their forehead and said, goodness, here was me thinking I was simply opposed to one or more vaccines, I never realised I was an anti-vaxxer? People resolve cognitive dissonance in their own favour. Convince someone they're an anti-vaxxer, and you merely convince them that an anti-vaxxer is an okay thing to be.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for Durham and the NCCU.
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Chris Goodall
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:24 pm

Apologies if this has been covered in the previous 120 pages, but I notice that on the ECF site under Covid-19 it says

"As more relevant material arrives or is generated by the Working Party investigating a return to OTB chess, that material will be linked here as well."

I didn't think there was a Working Party. I thought that idea got rejected in October, because advising people of the conditions under which they could play OTB again without dying of CoViD was a liability trap.

Are forumites' local organisations planning to wait for permission from the Working Party to start playing again?
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for Durham and the NCCU.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:31 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:24 pm
Are forumites' local organisations planning to wait for permission from the Working Party to start playing again?
They are probably awaiting clarity as to when a typical OTB event becomes legal again. There's also a confidence issue, that governments at short notice aren't going to reimpose restrictions preventing gatherings.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: (Chess) Life Returning To Normal

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:42 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:31 pm
Chris Goodall wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:24 pm
Are forumites' local organisations planning to wait for permission from the Working Party to start playing again?
They are probably awaiting clarity as to when a typical OTB event becomes legal again. There's also a confidence issue, that governments at short notice aren't going to reimpose restrictions preventing gatherings.
Is that clarity that's going to be provided by the ECF, though? So if the Plods catch us, say, milling about outside a venue in a group larger than 6, we can say nope, ECF told us it was legal, go fine them £10,000 not us?
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for Durham and the NCCU.
Newcastle is not in Scotland!

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