Cheating in chess

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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:00 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:59 pm
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:44 pm
Still, I find Lichess' attitude to the subject to be too self-congratulatory to be healthy.
I couldn't agree more. They should either do the job or stop saying that they do it.
A perfectly reasonable response would be

"Look, there's a gazillion twats out there. We're doing all we can but with the best will in the world it's an impossible task to stamp it all out. We'll do as much as we can but the truth is some people will slip through the net and some very blatant cheats will get away with it for longer than we'd like"

What the lichess guy actually said on perpetual chess this week was, words to the effect of,

"Look, we've thought of all the ways anybody might try to get away with cheating occasionally and we'll catch them all"

- which is self evidently not true. And therefore much worse than doing nothing.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:05 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:00 pm
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:44 pm
FWIW I also feel the wider chess community is underperforming in terms of how it responds to cheating and unethical behaviour
Indeed, but I doubt we're surprised about that :roll:
We may pretend to be though
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:16 pm

It's interesting too that if you query the efficacy or honesty of "anti-cheating" procedures you get a really aggressive response, which to me is a clear indication of guilt.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:37 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:00 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:59 pm
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:44 pm
Still, I find Lichess' attitude to the subject to be too self-congratulatory to be healthy.
I couldn't agree more. They should either do the job or stop saying that they do it.
A perfectly reasonable response would be

"Look, there's a gazillion twats out there. We're doing all we can but with the best will in the world it's an impossible task to stamp it all out. We'll do as much as we can but the truth is some people will slip through the net and some very blatant cheats will get away with it for longer than we'd like"

What the lichess guy actually said on perpetual chess this week was, words to the effect of,

"Look, we've thought of all the ways anybody might try to get away with cheating occasionally and we'll catch them all"

- which is self evidently not true. And therefore much worse than doing nothing.
Alternatively, people could listen to the podcast and hear what was actually said.
https://www.perpetualchesspod.com/new-b ... lichessorg
Last edited by Matthew Turner on Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:01 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:16 pm
It's interesting too that if you query the efficacy or honesty of "anti-cheating" procedures you get a really aggressive response, which to me is a clear indication of guilt.
I'm chatting with the lichess fellow on twitter right now. I wouldn't say he was being aggressive. I wouldn't say, either, that we say eye to eye.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:48 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:16 pm
It's interesting too that if you query the efficacy or honesty of "anti-cheating" procedures you get a really aggressive response, which to me is a clear indication of guilt.
That's because they realise that, when we indicate that we disbelieve their claims, in effect we're saying they're the real cheats.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:27 pm

I'm not at all sure I follow that.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:07 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:27 pm
I'm not at all sure I follow that.
Justin, I suggest the first question you might usefully consider is "Do the people behind the cheating allegations at Lichess and Chess.com honestly believe that their systems are anywhere near as infallible as they tell us?". If not, on a scale from 0 to 10, how would you rate their honesty?

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:14 pm

Except nobody from Lichess or Chess.com has ever claimed their algorithms are infallible. So it is rather dishonest to claim they have.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:17 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:07 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:27 pm
I'm not at all sure I follow that.
Justin, I suggest the first question you might usefully consider is "Do the people behind the cheating allegations at Lichess and Chess.com honestly believe that their systems are anywhere near as infallible as they tell us?". If not, on a scale from 0 to 10, how would you rate their honesty?
What would happen if we put the honesty of computer cheats on the same scale?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:22 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:14 pm
Except nobody from Lichess or Chess.com has ever claimed their algorithms are infallible. So it is rather dishonest to claim they have.
That's not quite what I claimed they said, Matthew.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:23 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:17 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:07 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:27 pm
I'm not at all sure I follow that.
Justin, I suggest the first question you might usefully consider is "Do the people behind the cheating allegations at Lichess and Chess.com honestly believe that their systems are anywhere near as infallible as they tell us?". If not, on a scale from 0 to 10, how would you rate their honesty?
What would happen if we put the honesty of computer cheats on the same scale?
I don't know but you're welcome to answer that at the same time as replying to my question.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:29 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:23 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:17 pm
What would happen if we put the honesty of computer cheats on the same scale?
I don't know.
I think we do, though, at least relatively
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:33 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:22 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:14 pm
Except nobody from Lichess or Chess.com has ever claimed their algorithms are infallible. So it is rather dishonest to claim they have.
That's not quite what I claimed they said, Matthew.
Perhaps it would be better if you quoted what they actually say rather than just making it up.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:37 pm


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