Final Scores

[Alan Walton]

I just think a regional division 3 format might be a bit fairer for the Southern Div 3 teams don't have to travel to the Midlands for 4 weekends may just the last weekend

So you would have

Northern League based around York/Leeds/Manchester (Crewe is too far South for most northern teams)
Midland League based at Hinckley/Daventry
South-East League based at Sunningdale/Wokefield
South-West League based at Bristol

With the playoff for promotion at the final 4NCL weekend, and the teams relegated drop into their related divisions

[Gareth Harley-Yeo]

I just think a regional division 3 format might be a bit fairer for the Southern Div 3 teams don't have to travel to the Midlands for 4 weekends may just the last weekend

So you would have

Northern League based around York/Leeds/Manchester (Crewe is too far South for most northern teams)
Midland League based at Hinckley/Daventry
South-East League based at Sunningdale/Wokefield
South-West League based at Bristol

With the playoff for promotion at the final 4NCL weekend, and the teams relegated drop into their related divisions

Not that it makes a great deal of difference to me now that I'll be in Div2 - but, to me I think part of 4NCL experience is having the opportunity to play good chess against people you wouldn't normally meet. Further splitting up the 3rd division is likely to mean 3-4 good teams (at best) playing in each region against some local club players who are entering for a jolly. This may have the positive effect of introducing more players to the 4NCL but it would also have the negative effect of decreasing the average strength of players/ability.

I guess it depends on which direction the 4NCL wants to go.

[Mike Truran]

This is what has been said so far on the 4NCL website (31 December news item on the home page):

4NCL Northern League

From Mike Truran

The 4NCL have recently been working to develop the idea of a 4NCL Northern League in response to the comment often made in the past that the 4NCL's choice of locations for its weekends has not always been conducive to northern teams playing in the 4NCL.

After various discussions with the Barcelo and De Vere hotel/conference centre chains we have now been able to secure weekends for a 4NCL Northern League on the same terms and conditions as our other 4NCL venues as follows. Within the constraints of venue availability, venue willingness to host us, coordination with other 4NCL weekends etc we have tried to get an equitable geographical spread between the north-west and the north-east:

6/7 November 2010: Barcelo Redworth Hall (nr Darlington)
15/16 January 2011: De Vere Wychwood Park (nr Crewe)
19/20 February 2011: Barcelo Majestic Hotel (Harrogate)
26/27 March 2011: De Vere Wychwood Park (nr Crewe).

These weekends are the same as those already booked for rest of the 4NCL for the 2010/2011 season to avoid the 4NCL taking up too many weekends in an already crowded chess calendar. We envisage all 4NCL teams (Divisions 1, 2, 3 and the Northern League) coming together at the fifth and final weekend on 30 April-2 May 2011 at the 4NCL's Hinckley Island venue (between Coventry and Leicester) for what would hopefully be a memorable and spectacular coming together of chess players from across the country.

As regards format etc:

1. The Northern League would have a similar format to existing 4NCL Division 3 (six boards, no female player requirement, Swiss system, FIDE rated, ECF graded etc etc). There would be two matches a weekend as with the rest of the 4NCL.
2. Rules, entry guidelines etc would be the same as the 4NCL. You might want to visit these links for the 4NCL's rules and entry guidelines for the 2009/2010 season for an idea of what playing in the Northern League would entail: here and here.
3. Our current thinking is that the Northern League would be combined with the current 4NCL third division for the fifth and final weekend, with match and game points carried forward from the first four weekends. Promotion places to Division 2 would be from the combined Northern League/Division 3 league for those teams that wanted it.
4. As with the existing 4NCL, rules around the composition of teams would be as relaxed as possible. Teams can be existing clubs and teams, amalgamations of two or more clubs and teams, groups of friends, junior teams etc etc etc.

I need now to gauge more specifically the level of interest for a Northern League that we would get from northern clubs and teams. Ideally we would need at least 12 teams from across the north to get things started (and if we did so, we could probably guarantee a prize fund of at least £1,000 to provide some further interest and incentive) - but by the same token if there is minimal interest in the idea, then the sooner I know the better so that I can cancel venue bookings in good time so as to give the venues a decent chance of finding alternative bookings.

I have also emailed the various northern federations and associations directly, including as many individual clubs as I was able to find email addresses for, so if this project doesn't take off it won't be for lack of publicity.

I look forward to hearing from you. Do feel free to contact me on 01993 708645 if there is anything you would like to discuss in more detail.

[Alex Holowczak]

3. Our current thinking is that the Northern League would be combined with the current 4NCL third division for the fifth and final weekend, with match and game points carried forward from the first four weekends. Promotion places to Division 2 would be from the combined Northern League/Division 3 league for those teams that wanted it.

Is that "current thinking" now definitely the case?

[Sean Hewitt]

I just think a regional division 3 format might be a bit fairer for the Southern Div 3 teams don't have to travel to the Midlands for 4 weekends may just the last weekend

So you would have

Northern League based around York/Leeds/Manchester (Crewe is too far South for most northern teams)
Midland League based at Hinckley/Daventry
South-East League based at Sunningdale/Wokefield
South-West League based at Bristol

With the playoff for promotion at the final 4NCL weekend, and the teams relegated drop into their related divisions

I'm not sure the South West would have enough interest to justify it's own section but I see the point.

The big problem I think would be cost. The current 4NCL business model is built on players (about 50%) staying in the hotel.

The more localised it is, the less people will stay.

The less people stay in the hotel, the less commission the 4NCL receive and the more they would have to pay for their venue hire.

The less commission they receive, the more they have to charge teams to enter. With high venue hire costs as well, I think this would be significant.

[David Sedgwick]

I just think a regional division 3 format might be a bit fairer for the Southern Div 3 teams don't have to travel to the Midlands for 4 weekends may just the last weekend

So you would have

Northern League based around York/Leeds/Manchester (Crewe is too far South for most northern teams)
Midland League based at Hinckley/Daventry
South-East League based at Sunningdale/Wokefield
South-West League based at Bristol

With the playoff for promotion at the final 4NCL weekend, and the teams relegated drop into their related divisions

I'm not sure the South West would have enough interest to justify it's own section but I see the point.

The big problem I think would be cost. The current 4NCL business model is built on players (about 50%) staying in the hotel.

The more localised it is, the less people will stay.

The less people stay in the hotel, the less commission the 4NCL receive and the more they would have to pay for their venue hire.

The less commission they receive, the more they have to charge teams to enter. With high venue hire costs as well, I think this would be significant.

There's also an issue of staffing requirements. If you have a multiciplicity of venues, you need a separate control team for each. There are only a limited number of arbiters available, bearing in mind that a number of suitable people are otherwise involved as players and captains.

[Mike Truran]

Sean's summary of the 4NCL's financial model is pretty much spot on. High bedroom take-up does two things: (a) it maintains venues' willingness to provide us with free playing space on a goodwill basis; and (b) it provides a significant contribution to 4NCL running costs and hence keeps entry fees down/prize money up. Low bedroom take-up (needless to say) does the reverse.

David's point is also correct.

Alex - yes.

[Andrew Wainwright]

I strongly disagree with the negativity in this thread towards the "northern league". I think this is a great step that can only be good for northern players.
The comment about "if you have any ambition then you should play in the 4NCL proper" is ridiculous. I will have a squad full of ambitious, young and talented players who perhaps don't want to have to drive 5 hrs to play near London! Only last month I was talking to a 2300+ player about the prospect of playing for my team in this division next season.
Also if White Rose 2 play in the Northern Division 3 (which I hope they will) then they are another strong squad who I am sure will provide a suitable "division 3 standard" of opposition to any team in division 3 north or south.
The efforts of Mike and his team to bring 4NCL to the north is a great step and it will encourage young players in the north who have aspirations of playing at a high level. If supported by events like the Warrington e2e4 tournament (this coming weekend) and other initiatives to develop strong northern based touranments it can only be a success.
One thing I would like to see though Mike if I might make a suggestion is the naming of the two 3rd Divisions to be "Division 3 North" and "Division 3 South" (similar to conference North and Conference South in Football), the continued use of "Division 3 Proper" in the long run will only hamper the development of Division 3 North.

[Mick Norris]

Andrew

That's good news - I'm not sure how strong the Manchester team will be, but we hope to have a IM on top board

Mike

Any idea yet how many teams will play in 4NCL North?

[Alex Holowczak]

If you're going to have an IM on top board, you would probably be strong favourites to get promoted to Division 2. Would any of the Northern teams accept the promotion to Division 2? This would then mean that you have to travel south, which is the reason you're not playing in it at the moment.

[Mike Truran]

Andrew - thank you for your kind words. Your comment about the names is well made, and no doubt in due course (probably sooner rather than later) the names will converge on a common standard. We certainly have it on our agenda to look at.

Mick - the number of potential entrants remains at around 10-15. The number hasn't changed much over the last couple of months, but then again I haven't publicised it further over the last couple of months either. I expect to be sending out entry guidelines for the 2010/2011 season over the next few weeks (using the email address list I laboriously extracted from as many of the Northenr chess websites as I could find), which I guess will be the point at which those less committed will drop out and on the other hand those who haven't signalled interest publicly so far will step up to the plate. My sense is that we will get at least 10 teams, which would be a good start. We only need 8 to get it going, given that the divisions converge for rounds 9-11.

Alex - northern teams would of course have the choice as to whether to accept or decline promotion. No doubt some would decline, feeling that one of the main points of the Northern League (good competitive FIDE rated chess played in quality venues at sensible time limits against people outside your normal local league circle but not entailing prohibitive travel) is sufficient in itself. That seems like an absolutely valid point of view to me.