Use of the September FIDE rating list

[John Upham]

Following on from BPs comment, The four AMCA Teams : Dragons, Rhinos, Hippos and Cheetahs are all very keen to play this coming weekend as we have four full teams for rounds 3 & 4.


As an aside...*

At the Captains meeting I (along with others I believe) wish to discuss the use of the current FIDE rating list rather than the one at the start of the 4NCL season and using that for the whole season. I am struggling to allow improving juniors the chance to play on an appropriate board.


*This ellipsis contains three dots rather than the other version we have been forced to become accustomed to! I promise to use it sparingly... and not punctuate every sentence with a lol rather than a full stop

[Sean Hewitt]

At the Captains meeting I (along with others I believe) wish to discuss the use of the current FIDE rating list rather than the one at the start of the 4NCL season and using that for the whole season. I am struggling to allow improving juniors the chance to play on an appropriate board.

I raised this last week and I understand that this is now on the agenda.

[Jonathan Rogers]

Yes, I'd like to know the details of why we now use the one list for the whole season. If the reasons are not very compelling then I would support John, pretty much for the same reason.

[John Upham]

I claim no originality on this as I believe that Sean was the first Captain / Team Manager to raise this issue.

Maybe this needs to be removed from The Snow by our erstwhile admin person?

[Ola Winfridsson]

The odd thing was that last season the team lists had to be submitted based on the current Fide list, but rated according to the September list, all in accordance with Fide's rules for team championships (as Neville Belinfante informed me when I queried this).

What strikes me as so odd about this is that it should be fairly easy for Fide to legislate to differentiate between team championships running over a season/several months (like the 4NCL) and those running over one or two weeks (like the European Team Championships or the Spanish team championships).

[Matthew Lunn]

I see absolutely no reason why the games shouldn't all be rated at the end of the season using the September list - this seems to be a point of contention for some people. The idea that unrrated players can get partial ratings that will be used in these calcuations seems just and good

However is there any reason why the later lists shouldn't be used to determine board order? Take someone like Peter Williams for example - shoving him in with easy wins on the bottom board when his new rating is 150 points higher than his September one (come March this will be the case I think) could easily be achieved and it isn't especially fair. This is by no means an attempt to cast aspersions on his captain - the same idea could be applied to many juniors who should be on higher boards than they are able to play on.

[Ola Winfridsson]

Matt: My problem with the current situation is that it's not particularly fair to use the September for calculations for the rest of the season since there are quite a number of Fide-rated tournaments between 1 September and 3 May, not least Hastings and Gibraltar, but now that Sean Hewitt is adding several Fide-rated weekenders (V. good initiative! I hope to find the time to play in some of them!) to Coulsdon's longer tournaments the potential for quite big rating swings is rather high. And with a floor in the Fide system of 1200 and their list being updated every two months this is even more likely.

I think it's perfectly fair that said Peter Williams can now be slotted in on a higher board than before, but it's also perfectly unfair that his opponent will have to count his/her result against an outdated list.

[Sean Hewitt]

I can confirm that the vast majority at the captains meeting agreed with my proposal to revert to using the current rating lists for 4NCL board order and that that will happen from the next weekend.

The one caveat is that the final weekend will use the March list as it was felt unreasonable to have to change board orders for games on 2nd May because of a change in rating on 1st May.

The reason that September ratings are used for rating purposes is that that is the FIDE rule. Perhaps that has something to do with consistency within the event (for norms etc), Stewart Reuben would be best placed to advise on that, but I think we now have the best situation that we could have under the circumstances.

[Ola Winfridsson]

The reason that September ratings are used for rating purposes is that that is the FIDE rule. Perhaps that has something to do with consistency within the event (for norms etc), Stewart Reuben would be best placed to advise on that, but I think we now have the best situation that we could have under the circumstances.

I know, but surely it must be possible for Fide to accomodate the two different types of a team championship? The current rule is perfectly applicable to team events that are played over a short period of time (i.e. they're more or less identical to congresses), but much less so for one running over a season.

[Roger de Coverly]

The reason that September ratings are used for rating purposes is that that is the FIDE rule. Perhaps that has something to do with consistency within the event (for norms etc),

There's a rule change when you play players without ratings. I think it is now the case that if someone completes a rating during an event, then the games played against this newly rated player will be retrospectively rated. So if you play an unrated opponent in the first weekend, you might still get a rated performance out of it when the whole event ratings are calculated in May.

[Alex McFarlane]

Surely FIDE have covered this. Though it wouldn't apply for this year as it has to be announced in advance.

4.13 The ratings used are the ratings at the start of the tournament; or if the games are reported period by period (or round by round), the actual ratings at the time of the game may be used. The option must be chosen before the start of the first round. See B.01.1.16 for the equivalent rule.

1.16 Calculating the norm requirements for an event which lasts longer than 90 days can be done in two ways. Which system is used must be stipulated prior to the event and mentioned in all publicity and indicated on all norm certificates IT1.
The same system as in B.02.4.12 must be used for calculating rating changes.
(a) The Rating List at the start of the competition shall be used, or
(b) The opponents’ ratings at the date the game is played shall be used.

[Ben Purton]

I can confirm that the vast majority at the captains meeting agreed with my proposal to revert to using the current rating lists for 4NCL board order and that that will happen from the next weekend.

The one caveat is that the final weekend will use the March list as it was felt unreasonable to have to change board orders for games on 2nd May because of a change in rating on 1st May.

The reason that September ratings are used for rating purposes is that that is the FIDE rule. Perhaps that has something to do with consistency within the event (for norms etc), Stewart Reuben would be best placed to advise on that, but I think we now have the best situation that we could have under the circumstances.

I was too hungover to make the meeting but I relaly would like it to revert back, I mentioned about this in the female player discussion

All 3 Sambuca Sharks teams

[Ola Winfridsson]

Surely FIDE have covered this. Though it wouldn't apply for this year as it has to be announced in advance.

4.13 The ratings used are the ratings at the start of the tournament; or if the games are reported period by period (or round by round), the actual ratings at the time of the game may be used. The option must be chosen before the start of the first round. See B.01.1.16 for the equivalent rule.

1.16 Calculating the norm requirements for an event which lasts longer than 90 days can be done in two ways. Which system is used must be stipulated prior to the event and mentioned in all publicity and indicated on all norm certificates IT1.
The same system as in B.02.4.12 must be used for calculating rating changes.
(a) The Rating List at the start of the competition shall be used, or
(b) The opponents’ ratings at the date the game is played shall be used.

Sure looks like it! I never bothered to check it once I was told it was a Fide rule to use the September list (someone told me in early 2009). How about for norm purposes? I would have thought the same rule would apply?

[Matthew Lunn]

Ola:

I agree that ideally we would use later lists - I just assumed that was an impossibility? Hopefully FIDE will amed their rules in the future, we can't be the only league style tournament that this affects.