4ncl 2022-23

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
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Nick Burrows
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:15 pm

4ncl 2022-23

Post by Nick Burrows » Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:12 pm

With apologies for the time it’s taken, we have at long last managed to secure dates for the 2022/2023 season as follows:


Rounds 1 and 2:

22-23 October 2022 (Daventry Court)

5-6 November 2022 (Daventry Court)


Rounds 3 and 4:

7-8 January 2023 (Daventry Court)

14-15 January 2023 (Daventry Court)


Rounds 5 and 6:

4-5 February 2023 (Daventry Court)

11-12 February 2023 (Marriott Warwick)


Rounds 7 and 8:

18-19 March 2023 (Daventry Court)

25-26 March 2023 (Daventry Court)


Rounds 9-11:

29 April-1 May 2023 (Kents Hill Milton Keynes)

29 April-1 May 2023 (Marriott Warwick)


Notes:


1. As can be inferred from the above, finding venues willing to take us on on affordable terms has been extraordinarily difficult – the main (linked) reasons being venues increasing bedroom rates and venue hire charges to unacceptable levels in an attempt to recoup Covid-related losses; and venues holding out for higher-margin business on events postponed because of Covid (such as weddings). With my ECF hat on I can confirm that the ECF (and no doubt other chess organisers) have had and are having similar difficulties.


2. The weekends are therefore in a couple of instances less than ideal given that they clash with other events. On the ‘a bird in the hand…’ principle we’ve confirmed the dates with the venues concerned, but I’ve asked Guaranteed Events to carry on looking for different venues that we can switch to for those weekends (subject to cancellation terms allowing us to do so).


3. Divisions 1 and 2 will be played as twelve-team all-play-alls as planned. With great regret we’ve concluded that, given Division 3 Central and Division 3 North entry numbers and bedroom take-up in the 2021/2022 season, the plans that we had envisaged for three regional Division 3s in our ‘Future Plans 2021-23’ document aren’t going to be financially viable. There will therefore be a single twelve-team all-play-all Division 3 and a single Swiss format Division 4 for the 2022/2023 season.


4. I’ll send further details about i.a. which divisions will play at which venues, and how Division 3 will be constituted, as soon as I can. In the meantime, thank you for your patience.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Nick Burrows » Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:16 pm

This will have a big impact on the available places for next seasons Division 3. Presumably 7 of the 12 spots will be taken by places 22-28 in this seasons Div 1&2 swiss - meaning there are only an additional 5 spots between this seasons 3 regional divisions.

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:33 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:12 pm
3. With great regret we’ve concluded that, given Division 3 Central and Division 3 North entry numbers and bedroom take-up in the 2021/2022 season, the plans that we had envisaged for three regional Division 3s in our ‘Future Plans 2021-23’ document aren’t going to be financially viable. There will therefore be a single twelve-team all-play-all Division 3 and a single Swiss format Division 4 for the 2022/2023 season.
The obvious question is why does it follow from this that there has to be a single twelve team all-play-all Division 3? Division 3N may well not be viable due to the number of teams and next season's venues being a long way away for those teams, but what's to stop Divisions 3C and 3S continuing as planned at the start of this season and being played at the same venue at the same time?

If I've counted correctly, and assuming no changes to this season's team entries, there are 7 teams that will be relegated from Divisions 1 and 2 and 1 team to be promoted from each of Divisions 3C and 3S, leaving 13 Division 3C teams and 31 Division 3S teams. That's a total of 51 teams in Division 3 and below.

If Divisions 3C and 3S continued that would give you 24 teams in Division 3 and the remaining 27 teams in Division 4. Division 4 has a sufficiently large number of teams that half of them could choose not to continue next season and there'd still be a viable division. That seems a better approach to me than a single 12 team Division 3 and a potentially massive Division 4 with 39 teams in it. It's certainly fairer to the Division 3C and 3S teams who were expecting to remain in a regional Division 3.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:50 pm

Thanks for sharing. Where did you find this?

Nick Burrows
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:15 pm

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Nick Burrows » Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:13 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:50 pm
Thanks for sharing. Where did you find this?
It was emailed

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:24 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:13 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:50 pm
Thanks for sharing. Where did you find this?
It was emailed
Thanks. I've now been added to the captain circulation list :)

David Sedgwick
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Location: Croydon
Contact:

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:34 am

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:24 pm
Nick Burrows wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:13 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:50 pm
Thanks for sharing. Where did you find this?
It was emailed
Thanks. I've now been added to the captain circulation list :)
The dates are also on the ECF calendar.

Nick Burrows
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:15 pm

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:05 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:33 pm

If Divisions 3C and 3S continued that would give you 24 teams in Division 3 and the remaining 27 teams in Division 4.
That seems a better approach to me than a single 12 team Division 3 and a potentially massive Division 4 with 39 teams in it. It's certainly fairer to the Division 3C and 3S teams who were expecting to remain in a regional Division 3.
I agree that would be a fairer and better model from a sporting perspective. I would guess that it comes down to the economics of having a single 12 team central/northern division and the room bookings that would generate. The x-factor being whether a merged 3C/3N would have enough teams for an additional, reasonably sized Div 4 Swiss.
It must have been decided that it would not, or that it was too risky to try it.

I am aware of one new team that was planning to join that division.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:10 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:05 am

I agree that would be a fairer and better model from a sporting perspective.
It remains to be seen what the qualification rules are for the twelve teams to form the national division 3 in 2022-23 and what the rules for promotion and relegation are between divisions 3 and 4 for subsequent years.

In the context of an eleven round Swiss, having 39 teams isn't especially large.

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:13 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:05 am
I would guess that it comes down to the economics of having a single 12 team central/northern division and the room bookings that would generate.
What is the expected difference in room bookings between a separate 12 team division playing at a venue and those same teams playing at the same venue not in a separate division. I would suggest there isn't any. If there's a difference it would be down to teams choosing to enter if they could play in a separate 12 team division 3 and choosing not to enter if they have to play in division 4, or vice versa. I'd have thought the absence of a separate division 3 would be the more likely to result in withdrawals and consequent reduced room bookings.

Nick Burrows
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:15 pm

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:14 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:13 am
What is the expected difference in room bookings between a separate 12 team division playing at a venue and those same teams playing at the same venue not in a separate division. I would suggest there isn't any.
12 teams alone may simply not be viable. If there were enough teams to form an additional Div 4 N/C, it may be.

I can't think of another reason why the new structure would be abandoned.

Ian Thompson
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:59 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:14 am
12 teams alone may simply not be viable. If there were enough teams to form an additional Div 4 N/C, it may be.
I haven't suggested a separate Div 4 N/C; there would be just one Division 4.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:45 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:59 am
Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:14 am
12 teams alone may simply not be viable. If there were enough teams to form an additional Div 4 N/C, it may be.
I haven't suggested a separate Div 4 N/C; there would be just one Division 4.
If that Divison 4 is located in the South, that means a Div 3 N/C, 12 team all-play-all must be financially self-sufficient. Based on this seasons uptake of rooms, I guess it's been decided that it won't be.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:07 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:45 am
Based on this seasons uptake of rooms, I guess it's been decided that it won't be.

Congress rather than League but this announcement appears on the 4NCL website regarding July's Congress in Leamington.
Our bedroom allocation at Woodland Grange has now been filled. Sorry for any inconvenience.
153 entries as of writing this post.

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:28 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:45 am
If that Divison 4 is located in the South, that means a Div 3 N/C, 12 team all-play-all must be financially self-sufficient. Based on this seasons uptake of rooms, I guess it's been decided that it won't be.
No, it doesn't.

Three venues have been announced for next season and they're not very far from each other.

The league's suggestion is 12 teams in Division 1, 12 teams in Division 2, 12 teams in Division 3 and the rest (39 teams if unchanged from this season) in Division 4, split across those venues in a way to be decided.

My suggestion is 12 teams in Division 1, 12 teams in Division 2, 24 teams in two Division 3 sections, each of 12 teams, and the rest (27 teams if unchanged from this season) in Division 4, split across those venues in a way to be decided.

If you make the assumption that all matches in a section must be played at the same venue, at the same time, you have greater flexibility with my suggestion than the league's because you have 5 groups of teams you can split between venues instead of 4.

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