4ncl 2022-23

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Mick Norris
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Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:30 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:45 am
Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:59 am
Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:14 am
12 teams alone may simply not be viable. If there were enough teams to form an additional Div 4 N/C, it may be.
I haven't suggested a separate Div 4 N/C; there would be just one Division 4.
If that Divison 4 is located in the South, that means a Div 3 N/C, 12 team all-play-all must be financially self-sufficient. Based on this seasons uptake of rooms, I guess it's been decided that it won't be.
Div 4 wouldn't be located in the South, it would be at Daventry, Warwick or maybe Milton Keynes

If I am reading Ian correctly, he's saying that rather than having a Div 3 plus a Div 4 at, say, Daventry, you have 2 APA division 3s (which we might call South and Central) plus a Div 4, also all at, say, Daventry

So, there's no difference in terms of it being financially self-sufficient

Another factor which doesn't seem to be explicitly taken into account, is that any teams moving to Div 3 or 4 from the North will have to stay over rather than commute because of the distance; this will increase bedroom bookings and may in the extreme lead to the situation we used to have for the combined weekends where the hotels were full and another hotel had to be used for accommodation
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:24 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:28 pm
My suggestion is 12 teams in Division 1, 12 teams in Division 2, 24 teams in two Division 3 sections, each of 12 teams, and the rest (27 teams if unchanged from this season) in Division 4, split across those venues in a way to be decided.
I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting your model to be played using an extra venue.

Using the announced venues, I agree that your model is a definite improvement.

Mick Norris
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:06 pm

Latest from Mike
Following my email to you of 15 June we’ve had a rethink about next season’s Division 3. We’re now persuaded that for a number of reasons having two Division 3s rather than just the one for 2022-23 (and maybe beyond that) offers a number of advantages, and I set out below more detail as to how the proposed arrangements will work. We may well rename the two Division 3s at some point, but that’s hardly top priority just now.

We hope to finalise which divisions will be in which venues soon – that depends on getting final confirmed playing area space details from the hotels, who are being as dilatory over this as they were over confirming dates, bedroom rates etc. It won’t have escaped the more astute of you that with two venues in use at each weekend there may need to be some constraints on team numbers. At the moment (on the basis of the two Division 3s model) we’re assuming space for around 26 teams in Division 4. If we can get more space we will.

Kind regards

Mike

Structure

Two pools of 12 teams: one at each of the two venues (probably “North” – three weekends in Daventry and two in Warwick, and “South” – four weekends in Daventry and one in Milton Keynes). All other current Division 3 teams are placed into Division 4.

Source Rule Number of Teams Note
22nd – 28th place in Division 1 & 2 c) (see below) 7
North: 4
South: 3 Kings Head failed to appear for five rounds out of nine (at the time of writing) - this assumes they renew their entry. Teams will be evenly distributed between Divisions 3 North and South, given the relative lack of distinction between the location of the venues.
2nd – 5th place in each of Division 3 North and Central N/A 8
North: 8 If a tie-break is required between the different pools, use the same methodology in rule e below to determine which teams remain in Division 3.
2nd – 10th place in Division 3 South N/A 9
South: 9

Q&As

Q Why do four relegated teams go into the new “North”, rather into the new “South”?
A The old Division 3s North and Central were smaller combined than the old Division 3 South, so it seemed fairer to have fewer teams in the two new Division 3s from the old Division 3 North and Division 3 Central.

Q Why do the old Division 3s North and Central each get four places in the new Division 3 North, when the old Division 3 Central had twice as many teams?
A (1) Simplicity (2) Those competitions have already finished, and the results were such that there was a relatively clean divide. In Division 3 North, there was a big gap (on final match points) between 5th and 6th place. In Division 3 Central, there were no tie-breaks necessary to split the teams with a cut-off at 5th place. (3) Perception – it was thought that to do otherwise would look like we were choosing some teams at the expense of others.

Q Is the plan to merge the two Division 3 competitions in 2022-23 into one Division 3 competition in 2023-24?
A That hasn’t been decided yet. We’ll look at it in the early part of the 2023-24 season once we have experience of the new format and have canvassed captains’ feedback.

Q How will promotion and relegation between Division 2 and Division 3 work in 2022-23?
A Four teams will be relegated from Division 2. Two teams will be promoted from both pools in Division 3.

Q Will one Division 3 always be alongside Divisions 1 and 2 and the other Division 3 always be alongside Division 4?
A No. We intend that the Division 3s will each play alongside Divisions 1 and 2 for three and two weekends respectively.

Rules Summary: Now and Then

2021-22 rules with no impact on 2022-23
a. The teams finishing in 1st to 12th place in Division 1 & 2 will compose Division 1 in the 2022-23 season.
b. The teams finishing in 13th to 21st place will compose Division 2 in the 2022-23 season. The remaining teams in Division 1 & 2 will be relegated to Division 3 in 2022-23.
c. The team finishing in 1st place in each of Division 3 South, Division 3 Central and Division 3 North will be promoted to Division 2 in 2022-23.

2021-22 rules with an impact on 2022-23
d. The remainder of Division 3 South, Division 3 Central and Division 3 North in 2022-23 will be filled by the teams based on their final placing in the corresponding divisions in 2021-22 until the number of teams in each division is 12. The remaining teams in Division 3 South, Division 3 Central and Division 3 North will be placed in Division 4 South, Division 4 Central and Division 4 North in 2022-23, unless the Chief Arbiter decides the number of entries at that venue is too few to organise such a division.
e. If extra teams are needed to be promoted to Division 2, the teams which are in second place in each of Division 3 South, Division 3 Central and Division 3 North are to be ranked by rating performance. If extra teams are still needed, this process will apply to the teams which are in third place in each of Division 3 South, Division 3 Central and Division 3 North, and so on.
Any postings on here represent my personal views

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:53 pm

Dates/divisions now allocated:

Weekend 1 | Rounds 1 and 2:

22-23 October 2022

Divisions 1 and 2, Division 3 West Mercure Daventry Court Hotel and Spa

5-6 November 2022

Division 3 East, Division 4 Mercure Daventry Court Hotel and Spa

Weekend 2 | Rounds 3 and 4:

7-8 January 2023

Division 3 East, Division 4 Mercure Daventry Court Hotel and Spa

14-15 January 2023

Divisions 1 and 2, Division 3 West Mercure Daventry Court Hotel and Spa

Weekend 3 | Rounds 5 and 6:

4-5 February 2023

Division 3 West, Division 4 Mercure Daventry Court Hotel and Spa

11-12 February 2023

Divisions 1 and 2, Division 3 East Delta Hotels Warwick

Weekend 4 | Rounds 7 and 8:

18-19 March 2023

Divisions 1 and 2, Division 3 West Mercure Daventry Court Hotel and Spa

25-26 March 2023

Division 3 East, Division 4 Mercure Daventry Court Hotel and Spa

Weekend 5 | Rounds 9-11:

29 April-1 May 2023

Divisions 1 and 2, Division 3 East Kents Hill Park, Milton Keynes

29 April-1 May 2023

Division 3 West, Division 4 Delta Hotels Warwick

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:00 am


Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:28 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:00 am
... and now teams to divisions -

4NCL rules wrote:In Divisions 1, 2 and the two Division 3 pools no more than one team from any squad will be permitted to play in the same division.
Manchester and Warwickshire have elected to have both their teams in the same division 3, presumably meaning split squads.

Wessex on the other hand have teams in both divisions as well as division 4, presumably meaning that Wessex A can raid Wessex B for reserves and Wessex B can borrow from Wessex C. For that matter, one hundred point rule permitting, Wessex A can field Wessex C.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:09 pm

Rule 1.2: Teams in Divisions 1 and 2 are now required to field a female player; the alternative
of fielding a junior player is withdrawn. For Division 1 this is a return to the pre-Covid position.

Wadih Khoury
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Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Wadih Khoury » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:42 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:09 pm
Rule 1.2: Teams in Divisions 1 and 2 are now required to field a female player; the alternative
of fielding a junior player is withdrawn. For Division 1 this is a return to the pre-Covid position.
That is not going to help the development of a new generation of players.
Any idea what was the rationale to the change?

Matt Bridgeman
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Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:29 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:42 pm
Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:09 pm
Rule 1.2: Teams in Divisions 1 and 2 are now required to field a female player; the alternative
of fielding a junior player is withdrawn. For Division 1 this is a return to the pre-Covid position.
That is not going to help the development of a new generation of players.
Any idea what was the rationale to the change?
We it will help the new generation of female players. Boys will just have to suck it up!

Alan Walton
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Location: Oldham

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Alan Walton » Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:11 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:42 pm
Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:09 pm
Rule 1.2: Teams in Divisions 1 and 2 are now required to field a female player; the alternative
of fielding a junior player is withdrawn. For Division 1 this is a return to the pre-Covid position.
That is not going to help the development of a new generation of players.
Any idea what was the rationale to the change?
Division one has always had this rule, it was only because of the Swiss system it was aligned to division two where a junior was allowed

Historically when the old APA system was in use, it was always a requirement in Divisions one and two to have a female player

When the pool system came in 16 teams had to find a female, so if you kept it at just Division one next season in essence you are restricting female development

Roger de Coverly
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:13 am

Alan Walton wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:11 pm


Historically when the old APA system was in use, it was always a requirement in Divisions one and two to have a female player

When the pool system came in 16 teams had to find a female, so if you kept it at just Division one next season in essence you are restricting female development
For some years on the 16 team system, it had been the rule that in division one a female player was needed, but in division two a junior could be substituted.

I've seen in practice that some female players have eshewed the bright lights and prestige of playing in divisions 1 or 2 in favout of facing less stringent opposition in division 3 or 4.

You can see their point. If male juniors are permitted, they could be 1800 or 2000 plus. This means that even the bottom board could be several hundred points above a modestly rated female player, rather than someone comparable in rating.

Matt Bridgeman
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Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:22 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:13 am
Alan Walton wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:11 pm


Historically when the old APA system was in use, it was always a requirement in Divisions one and two to have a female player

When the pool system came in 16 teams had to find a female, so if you kept it at just Division one next season in essence you are restricting female development
For some years on the 16 team system, it had been the rule that in division one a female player was needed, but in division two a junior could be substituted.

I've seen in practice that some female players have eshewed the bright lights and prestige of playing in divisions 1 or 2 in favout of facing less stringent opposition in division 3 or 4.

You can see their point. If male juniors are permitted, they could be 1800 or 2000 plus. This means that even the bottom board could be several hundred points above a modestly rated female player, rather than someone comparable in rating.
Maybe now though you have more good teenaged female juniors coming through than ever before. There’s a lot around that can stick it to a 2000+ rated adult player.

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:37 am

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:29 pm
We it will help the new generation of female players. Boys will just have to suck it up!
As the 4NCL had the rule for many years, up to the 2019/20 season, is there any evidence it helped female players in the past? If the answer's no, why would it be any different now?

Matt Bridgeman
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:10 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:37 am
Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:29 pm
We it will help the new generation of female players. Boys will just have to suck it up!
As the 4NCL had the rule for many years, up to the 2019/20 season, is there any evidence it helped female players in the past? If the answer's no, why would it be any different now?
It must be psychologically quite a positive thing to be involved in the higher divisions. People feel included, and although it certainly a tough arena to get results in the talented players can break through. I’d give one example - Tashika Arora, who plays a lot of chess but not long ago was mainly playing majors and junior events. A win and a draw against 2200+ ECF opposition last time out. I think she’s 14 and her FIDE is shooting up.

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: 4ncl 2022-23

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:24 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:10 am
Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:37 am
Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:29 pm
We it will help the new generation of female players. Boys will just have to suck it up!
As the 4NCL had the rule for many years, up to the 2019/20 season, is there any evidence it helped female players in the past? If the answer's no, why would it be any different now?
It must be psychologically quite a positive thing to be involved in the higher divisions. People feel included, and although it certainly a tough arena to get results in the talented players can break through. I’d give one example - Tashika Arora, who plays a lot of chess but not long ago was mainly playing majors and junior events. A win and a draw against 2200+ ECF opposition last time out. I think she’s 14 and her FIDE is shooting up.
The evidence I'd expect to see if this rule had been successful would be a reasonably large number of strong English female players. I don't see that. On the current ECF rating list, there are only 6 English female players rated over 2200. Three of those are immigrants who were already strong players before they moved to England, so we can rule out the 4NCL having helped them. That leaves at most 3 players who might have been helped to become strong players by the 4NCL in 20-odd years.

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