Division 1/2 2021-22

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:50 pm

One could imagine Guildford v Manx being drawn - again a sumptuous White massacre by a "designated White" IM player, Real Suarez, for the underdogs.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:09 pm

wood green have now converted two of their good positions and look happier but White Rose could make a draw if they do the same. Guildford are holding on, it seems.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:23 pm

Well, for the benefit of anyone outside the teams concerned who might still follow top division 4NCL, the news is that Wood Green 1 beat an admirably defiant Guildford and now have the sole lead on 11/12. You would think that unless Cheddleton could upset them, that is likely to be that - pretty much everything which could realistically go right for them this weekend did go right. And similarly, for their narrowly defeated (and generally impressive) opponents on Saturday, Chessable White Rose, everything that could go wrong for them did go wrong, including a relatively tough pairing in round six (Sharks) and a third 3.5-4.5 defeat of the season.

So it is now

Wood Green 11 (with really only Cheddleton to worry about, though they won't like playing their own second team)
Manx Liberty and Cheddleton both 10 (note that the former already beat the latter)
Guildford 9
Sharks, White Rose 2 (!), Alba all on 8 (but the latter two have lately risen and played virtually none of the other teams listed here)
Barbican, Wood Green Youth among a number of teams on 7, but in their cases having already played strong opposition - not that this would ultimately matter for tiebreak purposes. (Indeed, having gamepoints as the tiebreaker just further penalises teams who play strong opposition, rather than compensating for it).

This is going to cause headaches with pairings, and I expect that upfloats/downfloats will become increasingly the norm. (But it has been an issue already, as has double whites and double Blacks. Discounting round one, three of Barbican's five subsequent matches have been floated and only in the first weekend have they kept their colour sequence. Guildford too were surely none too happy with Black on board one for both days this weekend). Wood Green 1 will surely play Cheddleton next, but that means that Manx will need to downfloat to a team on 8, as will Guildford, and so none of the teams on 8 will actually play each other in the next round, even though they have in fact not played each other yet! And so on ...

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:25 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:23 pm
So it is now

Wood Green 11 (with really only Cheddleton to worry about, though they won't like playing their own second team)
We definitely won't be underestimating Barbican (or anyone else). There's still plenty to play for with Manx & Cheddleton very capable of getting to 20 points.

Mick Norris
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Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:33 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:23 pm
This is going to cause headaches with pairings
Is the 5th weekend in June necessary, or will all the main teams have played each other before then?
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Graham Borrowdale
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:50 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:23 pm
Well, for the benefit of anyone outside the teams concerned who might still follow top division 4NCL, the news is…
There are still some of us out here who follow, so many thanks for the updates!

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by LawrenceCooper » Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:04 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:33 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:23 pm
This is going to cause headaches with pairings
Is the 5th weekend in June necessary, or will all the main teams have played each other before then?
It could prove useful for norms.

Whilst the main clashes will probably be complete by the end of the May weekend I suspect that the title and sorting out the Division 1 and 2 teams for next season will be up for grabs until well into the last round in June.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:20 pm

Graham Borrowdale wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:50 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:23 pm
Well, for the benefit of anyone outside the teams concerned who might still follow top division 4NCL, the news is…
There are still some of us out here who follow, so many thanks for the updates!
Thank you, that's reassuring!

Jonathan Rogers
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Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:26 pm

Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:30 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:04 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:33 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:23 pm
This is going to cause headaches with pairings
Is the 5th weekend in June necessary, or will all the main teams have played each other before then?
It could prove useful for norms.

Whilst the main clashes will probably be complete by the end of the May weekend I suspect that the title and sorting out the Division 1 and 2 teams for next season will be up for grabs until well into the last round in June.
I struggle to think of anyone very close to a norm, but obviously stand to be corrected.

I still think that unless Wood Green slip to Cheddleton, we could call it a day after nine rounds as far as the title goes (obviously I don't expect Loz to agree). Admittedly if Wood Green do slip up, then the case for eleven rounds gets stronger - Wood Green might then want White Rose to have time to catch up and play Manx and Cheddleton too!

Deciding who finishes 10th to 12th will be the most difficult. If having eleven rounds would make that conspicuously fairer, then that would be a good reason for doing it. But I simply don't know either way. I would like to think that teams that surfacing towards the top just now would then start to play their fair share of the top teams; but they would still only play a selection of the top teams, and they may still end up having played fewer than other teams on similar scores. There is no such thing as fairness towards the middle of a swiss, after all, and that can be true over eleven rounds as well as nine.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by LawrenceCooper » Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:42 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:30 pm

I struggle to think of anyone very close to a norm, but obviously stand to be corrected.
Perhaps not very close (certainly not as close as in 2019-20 after three weekends) with only six rounds played but I consider four of my squad to be in contention. I expect that there are players in other teams similarly placed but I haven't checked.

Rhys Cumming
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Rhys Cumming » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:06 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:30 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:04 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:33 pm


Is the 5th weekend in June necessary, or will all the main teams have played each other before then?
It could prove useful for norms.

Whilst the main clashes will probably be complete by the end of the May weekend I suspect that the title and sorting out the Division 1 and 2 teams for next season will be up for grabs until well into the last round in June.
I struggle to think of anyone very close to a norm, but obviously stand to be corrected.

I still think that unless Wood Green slip to Cheddleton, we could call it a day after nine rounds as far as the title goes (obviously I don't expect Loz to agree). Admittedly if Wood Green do slip up, then the case for eleven rounds gets stronger - Wood Green might then want White Rose to have time to catch up and play Manx and Cheddleton too!

Deciding who finishes 10th to 12th will be the most difficult. If having eleven rounds would make that conspicuously fairer, then that would be a good reason for doing it. But I simply don't know either way. I would like to think that teams that surfacing towards the top just now would then start to play their fair share of the top teams; but they would still only play a selection of the top teams, and they may still end up having played fewer than other teams on similar scores. There is no such thing as fairness towards the middle of a swiss, after all, and that can be true over eleven rounds as well as nine.
I would say the most pressing issue is those falling off the cliff after 21st place. Currently 11th down to 22nd are all on either 50% or -1. With Wood Green likely to get 2 teams in the top 12 and White Rose in with a chance too (and seemingly not allowed to have both teams in Div 1 next year?), it is not out of the realm of possibility that the last round could feature teams with chances of being in both Div 1 with a win and Div 3 with a loss (given that 14th might be enough to be in Div 1, and 22nd enough to be in Div 3). I think 11 rounds does make the chance of a team being particularly unlucky slightly less critical but obviously it's still very possible / maybe even likely.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:11 pm

interesting, I had forgotten that 24th is not enough, and hadn't thought that Wood Green Youth probably want as many rounds of top division chess while they are still allowed it!

Mick Norris
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Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:58 pm

Rhys Cumming wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:06 pm
I would say the most pressing issue is those falling off the cliff after 21st place. Currently 11th down to 22nd are all on either 50% or -1. With Wood Green likely to get 2 teams in the top 12 and White Rose in with a chance too (and seemingly not allowed to have both teams in Div 1 next year?), it is not out of the realm of possibility that the last round could feature teams with chances of being in both Div 1 with a win and Div 3 with a loss (given that 14th might be enough to be in Div 1, and 22nd enough to be in Div 3). I think 11 rounds does make the chance of a team being particularly unlucky slightly less critical but obviously it's still very possible / maybe even likely.
That's an interesting observation, which I'd forgotten about; I can see the rules are:
The teams finishing in 1st to 12th place in Division 1 & 2 will compose Division 1 in the 2022-23 season. The teams finishing in 13th to 21st place will compose Division 1 & 2 in the 2022-23 season. The remaining teams in Division 1 & 2 will be relegated to Division 3 in 2022-23.
The team finishing in 1st place in each of Division 3 South, Division 3 Central and Division 3 North will be promoted to Division 2 in 2022-23.
which seems simple enough, but
For the 2022-23 season, in Divisions 1, 2, 3 South, 3 Central and 3 North, no more than one team from a combined squad will be permitted to play in the same division. If it is not possible to organise a Division 4 at a venue, then this rule will not apply to Division 3 at that venue. Where this situation is caused by a team finishing in a promotion place, the next eligible team will be promoted instead.
So looking at the table the issues are indeed the 2 teams from Wood Green and White Rose being in the top 12, which unless they split into separate squads (?), means that West is Best and Sussex Martlets are currently in a Div 1 place on 6 points, and in 22nd Warks on 5 points would get Div 3

It should be clearer after the next weekend (probably)
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:09 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:58 pm
It should be clearer after the next weekend (probably)
The other subplot is Division 3 South. As it stands at the moment, most of the teams in 3S will find themselves in 4S next season. How many depends on how many "Northern" and "Central" teams are relegated from Div 1/2. There's presumably no immediate likelihood of a division 4 Central, so some of the more northerly teams relatively speaking might opt for 3C rather than 4S.

Ian Thompson
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Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Division 1/2 2021-22

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:32 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:09 pm
There's presumably no immediate likelihood of a division 4 Central, so some of the more northerly teams relatively speaking might opt for 3C rather than 4S.
If they have that option. I'd expect the 4NCL to require teams to state whether they wish to play in Northern, Central or Southern divisions when they enter. If a team with a right to play in 4S chooses to switch to a Central division they wouldn't know whether they'd be in 3C or 4C. Assuming no new teams, or withdrawals, from this season's 3C, it would only need 7 more teams to have a viable 4C. That's easily achievable with a couple of teams relegated from Division 1/2 and 5 out of at least 20 choosing to switch from 4S.

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