Div 3N season 2021/22

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3044
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:24 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:54 am
MartinCarpenter wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:48 pm
I don't think anyone would have remotely blamed them if they hadn't actually run it this year, but they have. I can see why they appealed to the players of course but players being reluctant to stay over it isn't remotely the root cause.
......

The figures appear only marginally better for D3C so, if anyone believes that the D3N financial arithmetic will significantly improve in future if it matches D3C numbers, I fear they're mistaken. All this assumes that there hasn't been a late rush for hotel rooms which is a possibility - and a very welcome one because it would be a setback for English chess if D3N vanished. But otherwise, if "players being reluctant to stay over isn't remotely the root cause", I'd welcome your views on what is.
That you've - due to a temporary context - halved the number of teams overnight? If you're talking about entry fees that halves the income for starters, numbers staying over too although that does vary as Eric says.

The reason I'm fairly confident that a 16 team competition is at least close to viable, is that the 4NCL organisers really do know what they're doing! They've kept D3N going for ages when ~16 teams is about its apparent upper limit and moreover decided to form Div3C which looks to be around that size.

They're also presumably not expecting further localising things in Div3 to drive up the numbers staying in the hotels vs travelling on the day :)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:43 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:24 am
~16 teams is about its apparent upper limit and moreover decided to form Div3C which looks to be around that size.
According to the published reasoning behind the planned reduction of teams in divisions one and two from thirty two down to twenty four was that it gave more choice of hotels able to accommodate the numbers involved. Those playing at Telford may recall teams being allocated hotels several miles from the playing venue. Similarly 3C presumably aims to reduce the headcount for divisions 3S and 4.

it wouldn't be that much extra travelling for 3S teams to travel to Leamington instead of Milton Keynes and for 3C teams to travel to Milton Keynes. But then if 3C is too small to be viable in terms of hotel bookings, 3S, 3C and 4 combined may be too large.

Mick Norris
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Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:44 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:54 am
MartinCarpenter wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:48 pm
I don't think anyone would have remotely blamed them if they hadn't actually run it this year, but they have. I can see why they appealed to the players of course but players being reluctant to stay over it isn't remotely the root cause.
Martin. I'm not privy to the 4NCL finances but it's not hard to work out, based on a £100 entry fee (notional for 2021-2) for D3N, that there's £800 income. That covers five weekends so there's around £160 income for each D3N weekend. Equipment hire, arbiters costs, etc, eat into this.

I occasionally organise events. I recently enquired of some local (Hertfordshire) hotels as to their prices for the weekend hire of similar facilities to 4NCL. I received quotes in the £500-600 (daily) range which I reckoned could be negotiated down if enough overnight bookings could be guaranteed. Very likely the figures would be lower up north but why should any hotel, in the absence of those bookings, donate a suitable playing area at a price - next-to-nothing, in fact - needed to make D3N financially viable?

The figures appear only marginally better for D3C so, if anyone believes that the D3N financial arithmetic will significantly improve in future if it matches D3C numbers, I fear they're mistaken. All this assumes that there hasn't been a late rush for hotel rooms which is a possibility - and a very welcome one because it would be a setback for English chess if D3N vanished. But otherwise, if "players being reluctant to stay over isn't remotely the root cause", I'd welcome your views on what is.
We'll have 8 or 9 players staying at the Div 1/2 weekend, White Rose presumably twice as many, Manx the same, North East England the same; looks to me like the North is subsidising the event for those who live nearer the venues :roll:

English chess spends most of its money in the south, and now you want to stop holding 4NCL in the North; you can see the price of everything and the value of nothing, typical southerner even invading our thread about Div 3N :lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 1910
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:28 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:44 am
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:54 am
MartinCarpenter wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:48 pm
I don't think anyone would have remotely blamed them if they hadn't actually run it this year, but they have. I can see why they appealed to the players of course but players being reluctant to stay over it isn't remotely the root cause.
Martin. I'm not privy to the 4NCL finances but it's not hard to work out, based on a £100 entry fee (notional for 2021-2) for D3N, that there's £800 income. That covers five weekends so there's around £160 income for each D3N weekend. Equipment hire, arbiters costs, etc, eat into this.

I occasionally organise events. I recently enquired of some local (Hertfordshire) hotels as to their prices for the weekend hire of similar facilities to 4NCL. I received quotes in the £500-600 (daily) range which I reckoned could be negotiated down if enough overnight bookings could be guaranteed. Very likely the figures would be lower up north but why should any hotel, in the absence of those bookings, donate a suitable playing area at a price - next-to-nothing, in fact - needed to make D3N financially viable?

The figures appear only marginally better for D3C so, if anyone believes that the D3N financial arithmetic will significantly improve in future if it matches D3C numbers, I fear they're mistaken. All this assumes that there hasn't been a late rush for hotel rooms which is a possibility - and a very welcome one because it would be a setback for English chess if D3N vanished. But otherwise, if "players being reluctant to stay over isn't remotely the root cause", I'd welcome your views on what is.
We'll have 8 or 9 players staying at the Div 1/2 weekend, White Rose presumably twice as many, Manx the same, North East England the same; looks to me like the North is subsidising the event for those who live nearer the venues :roll:

English chess spends most of its money in the south, and now you want to stop holding 4NCL in the North; you can see the price of everything and the value of nothing, typical southerner even invading our thread about Div 3N :lol:
I'm no more connected to 4NCL than you are but no-one (including, I'm sure, the 4NCL organisers) wants "to stop holding 4NCL in the North" - in fact, I opined that "it would be a setback for English chess if D3N vanished" - but I'm drawing the attention of northern friends to the fact that, as far as I can see, the risk exists. I'm sorry if you find the message unpalatable but I'm trying to be realistic.

Eric Gardiner
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Location: Hull

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Eric Gardiner » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am

Has the minimum number of teams from a sporting viewpoint rather than a financial one been discussed? I would be interested to know, if captains are allowed to disclose this. I imagine even Mick would agree that Manticores 2 and 3 and two other teams only playing each other several times a season would not be viable :) With 11 rounds, Div3N teams are going to have to play each other more than once - or merge with another division at the end of the season as happened a few years ago. The other option would be to stop the competition after 7 rounds once all eight teams have played each other.

Nick Burrows
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:15 pm

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:03 pm

The plan is to switch to a swiss after 7 rounds.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3044
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:19 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:03 pm
The plan is to switch to a swiss after 7 rounds.
Its still going to be a slightly sad affair though. Stopping it after 7 rounds as Eric mentioned would make a lot of objective sense this season, but I presume not in terms of booked hotels etc.

Should be much more lively next season! We've been slightly struggling for really solid promotion candidates for a little bit - plenty of people going up but no one ever seemed to come down again :) The size reduction for Div's 1/2 should mean we get regular visits from Manchester 1, WR2, North East et al. Also 3C's maybe restarting in earnest etc.

Mick Norris
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Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:59 am

Eric Gardiner wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am
Has the minimum number of teams from a sporting viewpoint rather than a financial one been discussed? I would be interested to know, if captains are allowed to disclose this. I imagine even Mick would agree that Manticores 2 and 3 and two other teams only playing each other several times a season would not be viable :) With 11 rounds, Div3N teams are going to have to play each other more than once - or merge with another division at the end of the season as happened a few years ago. The other option would be to stop the competition after 7 rounds once all eight teams have played each other.
Indeed Eric, but the Manticores would normally have 4 teams :wink:

I'd expect some teams to come back in due course, and based on the registration lists, there has been some dispersal of players: NE England have the Longsons, Wood Green have Andy Horton, White Rose have Adam Ashton & Alan Walton as well as Martina Flint

Of course, the Covid rules are not to the liking of some of those who have said they will play, so weekend 2 in January may be interesting

Hull v Manticores 2 should be a good match today
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Eric Gardiner
Posts: 115
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Location: Hull

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Eric Gardiner » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:15 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:59 am

Hull v Manticores 2 should be a good match today
It was! We came quite close to winning the match but sadly I lost an endgame that was probably drawn.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:31 pm

Bad luck :) It took me a while to work out what the little e's by some of the grades mean. Not helped by a few people having played so little they don't have 4 figure English grades and have a little c instead!

That Spirit of Atticus team is, I think, further ahead of the rest of the league than the raw average grades suggest. Not unbeatable though.
(And who knows what WR3 will do some weekends.).

Mick Norris
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Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:04 am

Eric Gardiner wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:15 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:59 am

Hull v Manticores 2 should be a good match today
It was! We came quite close to winning the match but sadly I lost an endgame that was probably drawn.
I've just played through the game, interesting

Good luck today Eric
Any postings on here represent my personal views

MartinCarpenter
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Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:31 am

I like the pragmatism(?) on show with the two 5 board inter squad matches!

Mick Norris
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Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:33 am

Yes, seems very sensible
Any postings on here represent my personal views

David Robertson

Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by David Robertson » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:15 pm

Big shout-out & applause to the game-inputters in 3N & 3C.

All rd 1 & rd 2 games available to replay on Sunday evening. Rather more games to enter for 3S, of course. But high standards, for which :D :D :D

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:30 am

They were up amazingly efficiently :) (Except that they do it so often!).

Some rather understandable rust on show in quite a few of the games.

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