Div 3N season 2021/22

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Mick Norris
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:57 am

I think that varies from team to team; at Doncaster, you are less likely to get anyone staying from Bradford, White Rose or even Hull; it may be that a few Manchester and Bolton players will travel rather than stay; given the location of the teams, and that it is the first weekend back and the late sorting out of the entries, I'm not surprised about low hotel take up

Even at Bolton, we have some of the Manticores staying if they are playing both days and live a distance away
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Ian Thompson
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:24 am

I also think the 4NCL hotel rates mean you're paying a premium to stay at the venue. Some people might prefer to stay somewhere nearby that's cheaper.

The 4NCL requirement to cancel a week before the weekend won't help bookings either, particularly with the current circumstances.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:05 pm

I'm rather mystified, perhaps because I'm from the south, how it is that the north of England can hold recent well-attended weekend congresses at Gateshead, Hull and Scarborough yet - when it comes to Division 3N - there's only 50 or so players there on any given day.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:26 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:05 pm
I'm rather mystified, perhaps because I'm from the south, how it is that the north of England can hold recent well-attended weekend congresses at Gateshead, Hull and Scarborough
Don't forget the tourists. Both with the motorway network and Inter City trains, those towns are easily accessible from London and the Home Counties. Also the north east got its act together in being early to reinstate popular Congresses and thereby attract a national entry.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:21 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:26 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:05 pm
I'm rather mystified, perhaps because I'm from the south, how it is that the north of England can hold recent well-attended weekend congresses at Gateshead, Hull and Scarborough
Don't forget the tourists. Both with the motorway network and Inter City trains, those towns are easily accessible from London and the Home Counties. Also the north east got its act together in being early to reinstate popular Congresses and thereby attract a national entry.
Well, yes, although it's 2 1/2 to 3 hours by train from London to those locations. Add on anything up to an hour to travel to the London terminus and it's probably 3 1/2 hours. Even without reading today's news, I know rail travel across the north can be difficult but more than 3 1/2 hours ?

Mick Norris
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:38 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:21 pm
Well, yes, although it's 2 1/2 to 3 hours by train from London to those locations. Add on anything up to an hour to travel to the London terminus and it's probably 3 1/2 hours. Even without reading today's news, I know rail travel across the north can be difficult but more than 3 1/2 hours ?
I was asked to play the Sunday at Doncaster of the first weekend; note the hotel is some way from the centre

Trainline tells me that I'd have to catch a 4:35 am train from Bolton, and arrive at Doncaster station just over 5 hours later; the return journey would "only" be 2.5 hours
Any postings on here represent my personal views

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:47 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:05 pm
I'm rather mystified, perhaps because I'm from the south, how it is that the north of England can hold recent well-attended weekend congresses at Gateshead, Hull and Scarborough yet - when it comes to Division 3N - there's only 50 or so players there on any given day.
The drop in numbers for 3North is completely consistent with other league up here - they're either not running (Stockport, Cheshire(?)) or running with very significantly reduced numbers of teams and players.

The congress playing population do typically also play in the leagues, but there's loads of league players who don't really play congresses at all.

My assumption is that the keener players - congresses - are happy to take the obvious risks of FtF play (for them & for others + the extra hassle right now) and many of the league players really aren't bothered at this point in time.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:55 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:38 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:21 pm
Well, yes, although it's 2 1/2 to 3 hours by train from London to those locations. Add on anything up to an hour to travel to the London terminus and it's probably 3 1/2 hours. Even without reading today's news, I know rail travel across the north can be difficult but more than 3 1/2 hours ?
I was asked to play the Sunday at Doncaster of the first weekend; note the hotel is some way from the centre

Trainline tells me that I'd have to catch a 4:35 am train from Bolton, and arrive at Doncaster station just over 5 hours later; the return journey would "only" be 2.5 hours
Yup :( Doing the 4NCL (3N at least) purely by public transport is basically impossible but especially on Sundays! Doncaster does 'work' by train & walk but isn't fun. I'm not sure if Bolton works at all.

A lot of us - a comfortable majority of chess players I think? - don't drive of course. Car shares normally solve it but there are obviously huge issues with those right now.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:00 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:38 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:21 pm
Well, yes, although it's 2 1/2 to 3 hours by train from London to those locations. Add on anything up to an hour to travel to the London terminus and it's probably 3 1/2 hours. Even without reading today's news, I know rail travel across the north can be difficult but more than 3 1/2 hours ?
I was asked to play the Sunday at Doncaster of the first weekend; note the hotel is some way from the centre

Trainline tells me that I'd have to catch a 4:35 am train from Bolton, and arrive at Doncaster station just over 5 hours later; the return journey would "only" be 2.5 hours
Mick, I can sympathise although trains first thing Sunday morning aren't brilliant anywhere. But I think my point was that, coming for example from Bolton, you'd have had the same and possibly worse difficulty on Sunday morning trying to get to Gateshead, Hull or Scarborough.

Mick Norris
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:16 pm

Maybe Roger, if you're playing all weekend you don't commute each day by public transport; I've driven every time I have played 4NCL; it is no criticism that the business model makes going by public transport to 4NCL in the North difficult ( the "Bolton" venue is in fact in Blackrod, nearest station Horwich Parkway by the football stadium, as Martin says even that's a good distance from the hotel)

Of course the Sunday journey (3 hour round trip by car) for the 1st weekend would be to play in the Manchester 3rd team versus the 2nd team :roll:
Any postings on here represent my personal views

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:08 am

There might well be a few derby matches in 3N this season.....

I probably should slightly apologise to the 'Bolton' venue - I'd previously always looked at the walk along the pavements from Parkway. That looks quite nasty. Checking on OS, there do actually seem to be some useful footpaths.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:23 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:16 pm
Maybe Roger, if you're playing all weekend you don't commute each day by public transport; I've driven every time I have played 4NCL; it is no criticism that the business model makes going by public transport to 4NCL in the North difficult ( the "Bolton" venue is in fact in Blackrod, nearest station Horwich Parkway by the football stadium, as Martin says even that's a good distance from the hotel)

Of course the Sunday journey (3 hour round trip by car) for the 1st weekend would be to play in the Manchester 3rd team versus the 2nd team :roll:
Mick, surely the business model (2.0 start on Saturdays, 11.0 on Sundays) has the late start on Saturday but early on Sunday in the belief that those players who have to travel some distance will overnight at the venue. If that doesn't happen in significant numbers, for example in the case of D3N, the hotel revenue drops and the event risks becoming a financial liability. I suspect people will work out that, in that case, other events will have to financially subsidise D3N (if it survives) and so won't feel too sympathetic about anyone who returns home on Saturday night while complaining about the difficult journey next morning.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:48 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:23 pm
Mick, surely the business model (2.0 start on Saturdays, 11.0 on Sundays) has the late start on Saturday but early on Sunday in the belief that those players who have to travel some distance will overnight at the venue.
Surely its always been done that way so that people using public transport (+ lifts to/from venues) have a chance to get home in the evening? The trains etc certainly totally collapse round here late on a Sunday. I doubt if I could ever have played.
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:23 pm
If that doesn't happen in significant numbers, for example in the case of D3N, the hotel revenue drops and the event risks becoming a financial liability. I suspect people will work out that, in that case, other events will have to financially subsidise D3N (if it survives) and so won't feel too sympathetic about anyone who returns home on Saturday night while complaining about the difficult journey next morning.
Lets be clear about this - D3N struggled for a while but was I believe, although I obviously haven't seen the books! - doing pretty decently pre Covid. For the obvious reason there's only about half the usual teams and players this season so there's some major financial issues.

I don't think anyone would have remotely blamed them if they hadn't actually run it this year, but they have. I can see why they appealed to the players of course but players being reluctant to stay over it isn't remotely the root cause.

In this specific case Manchester will have players who only want to play one match of the two, and so are trying to patch holes on the Sunday.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:54 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:48 pm
I don't think anyone would have remotely blamed them if they hadn't actually run it this year, but they have. I can see why they appealed to the players of course but players being reluctant to stay over it isn't remotely the root cause.
Martin. I'm not privy to the 4NCL finances but it's not hard to work out, based on a £100 entry fee (notional for 2021-2) for D3N, that there's £800 income. That covers five weekends so there's around £160 income for each D3N weekend. Equipment hire, arbiters costs, etc, eat into this.

I occasionally organise events. I recently enquired of some local (Hertfordshire) hotels as to their prices for the weekend hire of similar facilities to 4NCL. I received quotes in the £500-600 (daily) range which I reckoned could be negotiated down if enough overnight bookings could be guaranteed. Very likely the figures would be lower up north but why should any hotel, in the absence of those bookings, donate a suitable playing area at a price - next-to-nothing, in fact - needed to make D3N financially viable?

The figures appear only marginally better for D3C so, if anyone believes that the D3N financial arithmetic will significantly improve in future if it matches D3C numbers, I fear they're mistaken. All this assumes that there hasn't been a late rush for hotel rooms which is a possibility - and a very welcome one because it would be a setback for English chess if D3N vanished. But otherwise, if "players being reluctant to stay over isn't remotely the root cause", I'd welcome your views on what is.

Eric Gardiner
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Re: Div 3N season 2021/22

Post by Eric Gardiner » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:59 am

In recent Div 3N seasons, teams from Ireland and the Isle of Man have played and their players would presumably all have stayed at the hotel venues every weekend (possibly with an extra night). These teams are unfortunately missing this year. I'd hope there are more teams in the 2022-23 season and the division continues to exist!

I wouldn't want to suggest to what degree Div 3N should be subsidised by the other divisions. Clearly the 4NCL accept subsidisation in principle though at their events as GMs and IMs get free entry to 4NCL congresses (plus all weekend expenses paid - maybe someone could confirm?).

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