4NCL NORTHERN LEAGUE

[Ian Thompson]

We envisage all 4NCL teams (Divisions 1, 2, 3 and the Northern League) coming together at the fifth and final weekend on 30 April-2 May 2011 at the 4NCL's Hinckley Island venue (between Coventry and Leicester) for what would hopefully be a memorable and spectacular coming together of chess players from across the country.

Can this venue cope with even more teams? Playing conditions are already cramped in some of the rooms used, and I am told that some players who wanted to stay at the hotel at the March 2009 weekend were unable to get rooms.

I see people commenting on some hotel review sites that Barcelo charge for parking. Has Hinckley Island started doing this? Their FAQs are unhelpful, just saying "Charges may apply ...".

[Mike Truran]

Yes, Hinckley Island has well in excess of 1000 sq m meeting room space and can cope with any extra space requirements. If conditions have been cramped in certain rooms in the past, that is probably more a function of imprecise space planning than any wish on the hotel's part to reduce our space allocation. Once I have an idea of how many extra teams we can expect with the Northern League (assuming it takes off) I will discuss extra space requirements etc with the hotel. Hinckley Island has over 360 bedrooms, so there shouldn't have been problems with people getting rooms in the past. If this happens in the future, could people let me know please so that I can pursue with the hotel? I have had no reports of Hinckley Island charging chessplayers for parking, and part of our deal is that they should not do so. Again, if this happens in the future could people let me know please?

[David Pardoe]

Efforts on this so far, and various suggestions are appreciated....but 3rd Div NCL North is not the answer, I dont believe.. The North really needs more First Class chess events on its doorstep....
The London Classic recently was a gem of an event...excellent effort from the BCF.....ecf....and others... Malcolm Pein.
And Yorkshire demonstrated earlier this year at the National Counties Finals that they are more than a match for all comers...the North really does have the talent to be top guns on the chess scene...

I believe that one or two northern venues (maybe alternating between Stoke and Sheffield/Leeds/York...), would be better options.
I say this because from a travel perspective, I feel these locations probably offer the best option from London & South.....along with Northern areas...
Here`s whats on offer if you picked Stoke...as a possiblilty...
http://www.britanniahotels.com/hotels/stafford
I`m not sure what the terms are, but I`m sure some good deals might be possible.... with some negotiation..
I`m sure there must be other possibilities...... I know that Stoke isnt top of the tourist league, but it does have a few attractions...Trentham Gardens to name but one......and since players would spend most of the time at the chess board, the locality doesnt necessarily need to be Hampton Court....or Durham Cathedral...

Or maybe we just need a separate top class Northern event....if some volunteers can be found...surely within the MCCU & NCCU areas there must be those with the necessary qualities/resources to produce such an event....if a combined solution cannot be found.

[Andrew Wainwright]

David

Why do you state that the 4NCL Northern League is not a possible solution to the void that currently exists for high level chess events in the north? It seems a pretty good solution to me.

I agree that the north has a lot of talented players as demonstrated by the recent county success, does the northern division 3 therefore not provide an opportunity for those who want higher level competition, but are reluctant to travel as far as the current 4NCL venues, to therefore become more involved at this level?

Stoke is hardly a central "northern" venue to hold "northern focused" events, regardless of how commutable it is from the south. I thought the emphasis here was to promote more opportunities for Northern players not make it easier for southern players to get to northern events? The M62 corridor between Manchester and Leeds is therefore the logical central geographical area to be looking at for more "norther focused" events.

I have heard varying levels of support from Yorkshire for this new league thus far and know of at least 3 Yorkshire clubs who intend to enter teams (and that doesn't include any support that there may be from York, Sheffield and Hull who all have strong local leagues).

What support is there from the NW?

[Mick Norris]

Andrew

The MCF will debate in the New Year whether an MCF team, or two, is possible - there are arguments for and against having official Manchester teams

If not, there are a few of us interested, and it may be that the bigger clubs like 3Cs, Stockport, Chorlton and Bolton can raise teams - plus a Salford area team has been suggested

I'm not sure whether any of the existing teams will choose to move to 4NCL North, as the venues chosen are probably less accessible for Midlands teams than the exisiting 4NCL

Cheers
Mick

[David Pardoe]

Andrew..... Stoke would be ok I think as a potential 4NCL venue in the North..assuming we were playing in the mainstream 4NCL competitions. Certainly much better than some of the current trecks south for northern teams.
But I would also think Sheffield would be welcome as a potential northern venue...and certainly rates as more northern in its location. Yes, I`m sure there are others...
Going for a 3rd Div north I think would not meet the need (...and call from many senior Northern players) for a genuine top class event in this area...and it might also serve as a distraction to other worthy events/congresses & county chess in the north, causing numbers to be reduced for those events... A straightforward league 4NCL (north) might be more attractive to our senior players (maybe including optional/discretionary promotion to 4NCL Div 1.....but its probably not leading anywhere. Maybe a separate northern Inter-cities League (10 or 12 boards perhaps..).
But its down to players in our northern region to express there preferances....

[Mike Truran]

David, I don't understand your continual negativity about this idea. After all, I don't see you getting off your backside and organising any of the "top class northern events" you seem so keen to bang on about - although there seems to be no shortage of ideas from your fertile pen that you are keen for other people other than yourself to action on a whole range of subjects. I don't plan to respond at any length to your ill informed and illogical postings, save to ask why you seem to have such an obsession with Stoke. Are you on some sort of commission arrangement with the Stoke tourist board (if there is one) to put business their way?

Anyway, if you have nothing constructive to say it might be helpful if you stayed silent on the proposal rather than constantly carping from the sidelines, and, as you yourself suggest, let northern players express their own preferences, particularly since you aren't actually putting in any work to make it happen as far as I can see.

[David Pardoe]

Just a couple of points you`re missing Mike...if I might remind you.......
Firstly, I was the one who raised this issue in the first place.....in responce to concerns raised in the North about the lack of true Northern 4NCL venues.... One might wonder what the `N` stands for..certainly not `National`...perhaps it should be changed to `S`, for Southern...and become the 4SCL.....then again, maybe not.
And the recent demise of the North West Eagles was a disappointment...symptomatic perhaps of the difficulties, ..having been somewhat `harshly` demoted from league 1, some feel...following penalty point deductions...
But they were increasingly struggling to find northern players willing to make all those trips to southern venues. As was the case with 3Cs, another top northern team who also dropped out of the 1st division some time ago, I believe.

The nearest thing we now have to a major senior National event is probably the BCF/ECF Counties Competitions...despite various shortcomings that they have, some will say..... Some well judged rule changes might help there....as I`ve said before..

Second thing you`re missing is that these Forums are for the free and open discussion of ideas. Whilst some might not suit your particular views, everyone is entitled to express an opinion.
I`ve explained what I think is `missing`....and offered some possible solutions....
But I would stress that I`m not trying to shoot down the 4NCL model, which appears to have done a pretty good job in boosting top grade chess in England.

The fact that more really genuine top class chess events are needed in the North (and for Northern players...) is what I`m trying to address. A 3rd division (north..) does not quite fit that need, I dont believe..... You might be correct when you suggest that the `North` should get its act together to do something about it.....much good work does go on behind the scenes, I can assure you.

Maybe the creation of a Northern Chess Association is needed, to bring together all the major relevant chess bodies in the North...including principly, the MCCU & NCCU, and major leagues and congresses .....and maybe to create a Northern Inter cities event, or something like it, and more effectively co-ordinate the chess scene up here. Maybe we need a BCF (Northern office...). If so, again, Sheffield might be a great place to have it...!

The chess scene is not particularly well co-oordinated...and its certainly not my place to dictate or organise any such events off my own bat... even if I could do.... We need to make better use of our existing administrative frameworks.
And, I agree, we certainly do need more willing volunteers in chess..to ensure the wheels turn more effectively. I do my bit on that side...I`ve been running county teams for several years, with good support from the MCF and the MCCU, to mention just one thing...

Clearly you dont like Stoke...as a possible 4NCL northern venue...? I mentioned it as a possibility because it appears to have very good Rail & transport links, with high speed Rail links to London and the South...and good road access to the east & midlands & north west. I know Stoke isnt top draw for the tourist trade....but neither are places like Crewe & Darlington. And some of the other 4NCL locations arent excatly Monti Carlo.... Reading, for instance, out in the outbacks, stuck in no-mans land...nothing there, and not that easy to get to without a car...so I hear ?

You`ll note that I did mention other possible locations, including Sheffield, which I`m sure would make an excellent northern location for 4NCL, and provide the option that northern players want, I believe...ie, not having to travel south all the time.
You`ll also note the views of senior players in the north, like Ben Hague.....and Alan Walton. Others here are always complaining about a lack of top grade congresses, etc. The Liverpool events not long ago were an exception, but proved very costly...getting the right funding is always tricky....

But this is something that needs to be consulted about more widely...unfortunately these Forums tend not to reach a large section of the chess community.... it would be good to hear a wider range of opinion on these matters...particularly from those in the North to help decide the best way forward.
Be assured, I do recognise that this is not an easy matter...and your efforts at 4NCL are widely appreciated.
Keep up the good work...!!

[Roger de Coverly]

Reading, for instance, out in the outbacks, stuck in no-mans land...nothing there, and not that easy to get to without a car...so I hear ?

Wokefield Park is a Conference Centre in the middle of parkland a few miles south of Reading and the M4, part of which is a golf course. You would need a taxi to get from Reading to the Conference Centre if you aren't driving. Park based venues have a bad habit of being in rural surroundings. Otherwise Reading is on the main East-West railway from London Paddington to Bristol as well as on the North-South Cross-Country route from Birmingham. By road from Birmingham you have M42,M40,A34,M4.

I see your point about the counties championship. Whilst in the south, we have Middlesex, Surrey, Kent, Herts, Essex and Sussex battling away for the SCCU title and the rights to compete in the national competition, it appears in the north that Yorkshire and Lancashire get byes through to the national stages. So unlike in the south where the 4NCL is competing for counties for free weekends with the SCCU event, in the north there should be less equivalent competition for a 4NCL north.

From a sporting view, I quite like the idea of amalgamating the main division 3 with the northern division 3 at Hinckley. it could reduce the minimum viable number for "north" to 10 teams - you amalgamate with the national division for the last 2 rounds.

[Mike Truran]

Roger, I had overlooked your good point about the minimum team number requirement, which as you say is not 12. I guess the other model is to have say ten teams playing an eight round Swiss and then amalgamating for the last three (bank holiday) rounds, or even nine teams playing eight all play all rounds using the triangular match model which the 4NCL uses when Div 3 has an odd number of teams. Either way, it would hopefully only be a temporary fix until the Northern League gets critical mass. The idea of a big get together for the final three rounds at Hinckley is hopefully one we could stick with even when the Northern League gets bigger - I have provisionally booked the end May 2012 weekend at Hinckley already on that basis.

PS Thank you for your comments about Wokefield Park, which at least are from somebody who has actually been there.

[Alex Holowczak]

A 3rd division (north..) does not quite fit that need, I dont believe.....

Then what does?

[Mike Truran]

Exactly Alex. it will be as top class as people want to make it.

PS David - the first time you chirped up on the subject of northern venues was a short time ago, so why you think you were the first to raise it when it has been raised by, for example, the North West Eagles and 3Cs organisers at regular intervals over the years escapes me. With regard to your other comments - you're obviously very good at "offering solutions". That, however, is the easy part. Actually putting in the hard yards to improve matters, like David Robertson, Malcolm Pein, Michael Basman, the 4NCL organisers and so on, is quite a different matter.

[benedgell]

If you want a top level event in the north, go out there and make it happen. The London Classic shows that there are people/ companies who want to sponsor chess, all it requires is someone willing to put in the work organise the event.

Until/ unless this event happens, then a Northern 4NCL League would be as close to a top level event in the north as anything out there bar possibly the Blackpool Congress.

[David Pardoe]

Exactly Alex. it will be as top class as people want to make it....???

PS David - the first time you chirped up on the subject of northern venues was a short time ago, so why you think you were the first to raise it when it has been raised by, for example, the North West Eagles and 3Cs organisers at regular intervals over the years escapes me. With regard to your other comments - you're obviously very good at "offering solutions". That, however, is the easy part. Actually putting in the hard yards to improve matters, like David Robertson, Malcolm Pein, Michael Basman, the 4NCL organisers and so on, is quite a different matter.

Mike....
I was referring to the prompt that kick started this particular thread...if you remember, a couple of months ago, when you asked me on another ECF thread what was `wrong` with the 4NCL event..to which I replied, pointing out that one issue concerned the `southern based ` nature of this, so called National event.
Almost immediately afterwards you started this thread....not that it really matters....and I`m sure you`re right that things have been simmering for some time previously..
Regarding comments about putting things into practice.....firstly you need to establish what projects/initiatives might have sufficient support. Thats the stage we seem to be at here.....then we can go for the practicalities of implimentation....
I`ve said what I think might be good options...others can have there say. Hopefully they wont get told to clear off somewhere else with there ideas....thats a very negative approach...not helpful at all.
You might try putting out a questionaire to all the 4NCL members/clubs, asking there views on these matters, and on the various ideas that have been put forward...see what they think...?
You seem to be suggesting that its just a matter of putting things into practice...you dont really need ideas (cause thats the easy bit...??) Looks to me that finding the right ideas, to meet the aspirations of our mainly top gun northern players, is not proving too easy. Some get a bit tetchy when a few, more challenging ideas are put forward...??
Does the North want another 2rd rate, 3rd division league...NO, I dont think they do...they`ve got plenty of those such events already (and some could probably do with an uplift...ie, congressess & leagues....although Scarborough has been hailed as a shining example of good congresses on another thread...so its not all gloom) ..,..at least thats the view of the senior players I have spoken to, I believe.
And do our top northern players want to play in a northern based league where promotion would take then into 4NCL, Div 2...I very much doubt it......
And just to add another point....I think that northern teams are relatively happier to play in 4NCL Divs 2 & 3...because the travel south is slightly less onerous... Its the 1st Division, which I understand is proving a challenge for Northern teams....
But its up to the northern players to decide which, if any of the various options already suggested, they might favour...or what other alternatives there might be....
Would the north like some 4NCL truely northern venues...YES THEY WOULD..?
If this is not possible, or convenient, then maybe other options should be considered..


Mike...you referred to the Reading venue, situated in lovely countryside on a golf course...but miles from anywhere....some have raised concerns about this...Like..you`re stuck at the Hotel between rounds.....cant nip down to the shops for a snack or bite to eat....and not everyone wants to be trapped and left to wander round a golf course between matches.. In short, some feel stuck with hotels rather pricey offerings, in grand iscolation, so to speak..... But these are simply observations that I am passing on from others.... No doubt it is a fine spot with excellent playing conditions...

Roger.....re your comments about the NCCU counties events...yes, I agree with you...they are a dogs breakfast. This is caused by the historical total dominance of Yorkshire and Lancs, which has effectively killed off all competition, leaving other counties shut out in the cold... I`ve commented on this situation many times, and offered some suggestions as to how things could be radically improved, liberating the other counties, and creating some truely vibrant competitions...like those in the MCCU & SCCU... Its always going to be tough for counties on the outer fringes, like Northumberland.

But I can see some of the politics that has motivated this...and how they may have seen this as a necessity in the challenge to compete on more equal terms with other counties/Unions...in the battle to become undisputed masters of the Universe, which Yorkshire currently are... at least in ECF circles.... big brother rules ok??

Its the old story....change takes time...and the right leadership to drive these through....You can take the horse to water...but will it drink....? Now that we have a new, more enlightened regime in charge at the NCCU, I am hopeful that things will change for the good. I hope they will put there heads together and drive through some long overdue changes, and help improve northen chess....including some much needed help for `Manchester`, that would improve relations in the north, and perhaps lead to some closer co-operation, to the mutual benefit of all chess players in the north.

[Roger de Coverly]

And just to add another point....I think that northern teams are relatively happier to play in 4NCL Divs 2 & 3...because the travel south is slightly less onerous... Its the 1st Division, which I understand is proving a challenge for Northern teams....

As a factual point, divisions 1 and 2 have been played at the same venue for several years. If anything, when there's a split venue, division 3 seems to pick the more Northern straw.

some have raised concerns about this...Like..you`re stuck at the Hotel between rounds.....cant nip down to the shops for a snack or bite to eat....and not everyone wants to be trapped and left to wander round a golf course between matches

That's only relevant if that venue is used for the May three round weekend. Otherwise with the round times being 2pm - 9pm on Saturday and 11am - 6pm on Sunday you can only really budget time for a trip to a local curry house or steak house, an evening in the bar and a leisurely breakfast. It was certainly easier to do a bit of Sunday morning shopping when the May weekend was in Birmingham or Telford - but that's one day out of five weekends. If you're "trapped" in a hotel maybe a bit of chess study is appropriate.