4NCL On-Line Season 4

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Neil Graham
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:36 pm

4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by Neil Graham » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:43 pm

Entries down from 264 in Season 3 to 184 in Season 4 - several teams/squads conspicuous by their absence.

In Junior 4NCL reduction from 202 to 123

Neil Graham
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by Neil Graham » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:28 pm

I see that Sussex Social Isolators defaulted their match in Division One last night. Any reason why?

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:07 pm

Neil Graham wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:28 pm
I see that Sussex Social Isolators defaulted their match in Division One last night. Any reason why?
I saw a comment on Facebook that one family was stranded in the Lake District without wi-fi and there was also mention of a cheating allegation from round 1.

Rhys Cumming
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by Rhys Cumming » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:16 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:07 pm
Neil Graham wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:28 pm
I see that Sussex Social Isolators defaulted their match in Division One last night. Any reason why?
I saw a comment on Facebook that one family was stranded in the Lake District without wi-fi and there was also mention of a cheating allegation from round 1.
This is not the case at all: the round 1 and 2 incidents were two completely separate matters. I am thankful that cheating 'discussions' have become less of a topic on here than earlier in the pandemic, but the round 1 incident was a case of a 5 move 'cheating detected' flag from lichess where the player was using their ipad to do some pre-match analysis and because it was low on charge prior to the game, the player in question logged in to play on their laptop instead. Lichess detected multiple log-ins and forfeited the game after 5 moves as 'cheating detected' when presumably the analysis board had a similar position to the live game. It's an understandable mechanism and I don't envy those coming up with cheat detection systems, but it's an unfortunate case that should not be seen in anywhere close to the same light at 2900 performances over the course of several games.

The default this week was primarily my fault as team captain. One of our players who was due to play updated their membership on the Monday to be eligible to play and when I entered our team their registration was not on the system. The player had told me they had renewed and sent me proof of this, so I naively assumed that this meant our team would be correctly entered once the registration was complete(as I believe has been the case in the regular 4NCL, but I could be wrong). What had happened though is that the team entry as a whole (including all other players) was rejected and I was required to go back onto the system and re-enter the team in full once the player's membership had gone into the system. I was unfortunately not aware of this error until 6:45 on the day of the game and by the point I managed to make contact with the opposition captain, two of the opposition had wisely made other plans. We managed to play 2 of the games anyway as friendlies and I gave my apologies to the other team, but it was simply an innocent mistake.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:40 am

Just been reading through the online/zoom restrictions for Division 4 (along with much more serious exercises :)) semi's.

Not really convinced that all of it is soundly technically based, but it isn't easy.

In sporting terms - am I right in concluding that you can't actually monitor the other games in the match you're playing in? Or even the match score?
(Multiple tabs open in the browser appear to be explicitly banned.).

I realise that this is at least as much down to LiChess et all (still) not having developed a 'proper' interface for matches, but it really isn't great.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by Nick Burrows » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:02 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:40 am
In sporting terms - am I right in concluding that you can't actually monitor the other games in the match you're playing in? Or even the match score?
(Multiple tabs open in the browser appear to be explicitly banned.).
My team have done this in every match since it began without issue.

MartinCarpenter
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Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:53 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:02 pm
MartinCarpenter wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:40 am
In sporting terms - am I right in concluding that you can't actually monitor the other games in the match you're playing in? Or even the match score?
(Multiple tabs open in the browser appear to be explicitly banned.).
My team have done this in every match since it began without issue.
There's some major extra stuff for the semi's and finals - live zoom, screen sharing etc. That explicitly bans more than one open browser tab.

You can see why of course - it would be very hard to verify that the games you're following are in fact innocent. The chess sites could solve it very easily.

I'd love to be able to call it clear overkill for unimportant, low level leagues but sadly :(

Neil Graham
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by Neil Graham » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:31 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:53 pm
Nick Burrows wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:02 pm
MartinCarpenter wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:40 am
In sporting terms - am I right in concluding that you can't actually monitor the other games in the match you're playing in? Or even the match score?
(Multiple tabs open in the browser appear to be explicitly banned.).
My team have done this in every match since it began without issue.
There's some major extra stuff for the semi's and finals - live zoom, screen sharing etc. That explicitly bans more than one open browser tab.

You can see why of course - it would be very hard to verify that the games you're following are in fact innocent. The chess sites could solve it very easily.

I'd love to be able to call it clear overkill for unimportant, low level leagues but sadly :(
Frankly Martin overkill isn't the word. We can't leave for 2.5 hours to go to the toilet; we have no proper instructions on how this is to work etc etc.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:28 pm

Neil Graham wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:31 pm
Frankly Martin overkill isn't the word. We can't leave for 2.5 hours to go to the toilet; we have no proper instructions on how this is to work etc etc.
I did think that they'd sent round quite thorough looking instructions?

They're volunteers trying to solve a very hard problem - I'm sure they'd get loads of complaints if they didn't do anything too. So well worth being polite and understanding about it! Not convenient, but survivable.

Beside wanting to technically pedant things (huge scope but it'd be missing the point a bit :)), I guess my main legitimate worry would be that some people simply won't be technically able to comply - this time last year I wouldn't have been able to as I was using tablets rather than my desktop for video Conf. Entirely possible that some people might only have tablets/mobiles available.

Neil Graham
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by Neil Graham » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:29 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:28 pm
Neil Graham wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:31 pm
Frankly Martin overkill isn't the word. We can't leave for 2.5 hours to go to the toilet; we have no proper instructions on how this is to work etc etc.
I did think that they'd sent round quite thorough looking instructions?

They're volunteers trying to solve a very hard problem - I'm sure they'd get loads of complaints if they didn't do anything too. So well worth being polite and understanding about it! Not convenient, but survivable.

Beside wanting to technically pedant things (huge scope but it'd be missing the point a bit :)), I guess my main legitimate worry would be that some people simply won't be technically able to comply - this time last year I wouldn't have been able to as I was using tablets rather than my desktop for video Conf. Entirely possible that some people might only have tablets/mobiles available.
I've had some useful e-correspondence with Andy Howie tonight - good news is that we can pay a visit providing we inform the arbiter. If we have gone through seven rounds without complaint and confirmed that all the games have passed the "fair play" rule it does seem rather like a sledgehammer to crack a nut especially as we have two technophobes in our prospective team who have no idea what they are doing.

David Sedgwick
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:33 pm

Neil Graham wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:29 pm
If we have gone through seven rounds without complaint and confirmed that all the games have passed the "fair play" rule it does seem rather like a sledgehammer to crack a nut ...
It's not that simple, Neil.

If a player's games have "passed" the fair play checks, it doesn't necessarily mean that no suspicions have been raised, only that the threshold for action has not been reached.

Moreover, if a player has not been cheated in the earlier stages of a competition, that does not necessarily mean that the player may not be tempted to do so in the later stages. (For the avoidance of doubt this comment is in no way aimed at Ashfield.)

I believe that similar Regulations applied for the final stages of Season 3, and that they passed off without incident.

Good luck to all the players and to all the arbiters.

Neil Graham
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by Neil Graham » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:50 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:33 pm
Neil Graham wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:29 pm
If we have gone through seven rounds without complaint and confirmed that all the games have passed the "fair play" rule it does seem rather like a sledgehammer to crack a nut ...
It's not that simple, Neil.

If a player's games have "passed" the fair play checks, it doesn't necessarily mean that no suspicions have been raised, only that the threshold for action has not been reached.

Moreover, if a player has not been cheated in the earlier stages of a competition, that does not necessarily mean that the player may not be tempted to do so in the later stages. (For the avoidance of doubt this comment is in no way aimed at Ashfield.)

I believe that similar Regulations applied for the final stages of Season 3, and that they passed off without incident.

Good luck to all the players and to all the arbiters.
I'll let you know how we went on after tonight's game.

James Toon
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Location: Surrey

Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by James Toon » Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:46 pm

Tension averted for Guildford Castles in Division 3 as Shropshire & Friends 3 can't raise a team. We must screw our courage to the sticking-place v Charlton Cobras or Hackney Thirsty in the final.

Neil Graham
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by Neil Graham » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:07 pm

James Toon wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:46 pm
Tension averted for Guildford Castles in Division 3 as Shropshire & Friends 3 can't raise a team. We must screw our courage to the sticking-place v Charlton Cobras or Hackney Thirsty in the final.
Disappointingly three teams out of eight defaulted (including both matches in Division Three). Meanwhile we did win our match so meet Martin's team in the Final so despite our doubtful technical abilities we were guided through - so thanks to Andy Howie (holed up in his hotel room in Dubai) and the other arbiters.

David Sedgwick
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 4

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:51 am

Neil Graham wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:07 pm
Disappointingly three teams out of eight defaulted (including both matches in Division Three). Meanwhile we did win our match so meet Martin's team in the Final so despite our doubtful technical abilities we were guided through - so thanks to Andy Howie (holed up in his hotel room in Dubai) and the other arbiters.
Congratulations to Ashfield and the other four teams who qualified for the Finals by playing and winning. Here's hoping that all eight finalists get to play on Tuesday 14th December.

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