4NCL On-Line Season 3

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Neil Graham
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Neil Graham » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:26 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:57 pm
Neil Graham wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:50 pm
We cannot expect otb chess until at the earliest very late Spring.
Which year?
Well hopefully this year - but don't hold your breath. And as to "The Forum demands answers" - you will also be waiting a long time!

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MJMcCready
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by MJMcCready » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:57 pm

Does each match have its own link that you can click on to start?

Kevin Williamson
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Kevin Williamson » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:10 pm

MJMcCready wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:57 pm
Does each match have its own link that you can click on to start?
Mark, the pairings should be on the 4ncl website from 6:30. You'll need to log into Lichess and if white issue the challenge (instructions can be found by following the link in the email we got from our stand-in skipper). If you are black wait for your opponent to challenge you.

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MJMcCready
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by MJMcCready » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:00 pm

Ok thanks Kevin, think I have it covered now.

Neil Graham
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Neil Graham » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:23 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:01 pm
Neil Graham wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:00 pm
Thus a team having to start at the bottom will take until 2023 to reach Division One.
Two years to get from bottom to top, indeed.
Bearing in mind that each On-Line season takes 18 weeks we won't see three On-Line Seasons in a year. Consequently a team starting in Division Seven now will probably not reach Division One till 2024 assuming they achieve a promotion at every stage.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Nick Burrows » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:23 am

Which is the same as the 4ncl proper

Neil Graham
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Neil Graham » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:56 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:23 am
Which is the same as the 4ncl proper
Not if you start in Division Three (North).

John McKenna
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by John McKenna » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:01 pm

Round 2, tonight's pairings in Div. 1 -

11 Blackthorne Russia - - - Broadland Kestrels

12 Guildford Young Guns - - - Schach Attack

13 Downend 1 - - - Sussex Social Isolators

14 Wessex Some Stars A - - - Harrow 1

15 Anglia Avengers 1 - - - CSC 1

16 Warwick University - - - Spirit of Atticus A

17 Chessable White Rose 1 - - - Sussex Starlings

18 Watford 1 - - - Mushrooms 1

19 Shropshire 1 - - - Brentwood A

20 Oxford 1 - - - Chessable White Rose 2

21 Atticus A - - -Barbican

22 Catford Cosmonauts 1 - - - Alba Bon Accord 1

23 Celtic Tigers & Sharks - - - St Benildus A

24 Exeter Honey Badgers - - - Poisoned Pawns

25 Alba - - - Kent KJCA Kestrels A

26 The Full Ponty - - - Dundee City A

I'll be keeping an eye on the Cosmonauts - Catford is just down the way and GM Bogdan Lalic played for them in the first round.

Edit - Bogdan drew and Comos lost 1.5-2.5 to the canny Scots.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Roger Lancaster
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:46 am

Neil Graham wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:06 pm

This conveniently brings me to the question of promotion and relegation. 40 teams might have been anticipating relegation according to the spreadsheet of 06 January; six have withdrawn and disappeared leaving 34 expecting to go down. In fact no teams at all have suffered this fate; all 34 sides remain where they were. Where vacancies occur the first sides to benefit are those that filled these lowly position and they have all been spared; having said this more sides have been promoted than might have been expected. I am firmly of the opinion that failure should result in relegation and if a team finishes in last position of an eight team all-play-all it should go down whatever the circumstances to be replaced by a more successful team from the division below. We have some shining examples this year - the worst being a team that P7 W0 D0 L7 and games W0 D0 L26 - and there are several others not much better - and all retained their places to suffer the same fate again this time.

Of course the rules cannot be changed for Season Three but they should be shook up for Season Four as I'm sure we will still be in the throes of lockdown then.
I hadn't read Neil's post until recently but, as team manager of two of the teams he presumably had in mind, I agree he makes a fair point. In fact, I had told the team members in question they were scheduled to be relegated - and, as this offered the prospect of more equal matches in the following season, this would have been a welcome outcome. However, as Neil observes, due to numerous teams withdrawing, the teams - and others in a similar position - unexpectedly found themselves still in the divisions from which they had confidently expected to be relegated. They were not offered any choice in the matter. I'm not sure that it's altogether fair to characterise such teams as "shining examples" as if they were somehow to blame.

Neil Graham
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Neil Graham » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:43 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:46 am
Neil Graham wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:06 pm

This conveniently brings me to the question of promotion and relegation. 40 teams might have been anticipating relegation according to the spreadsheet of 06 January; six have withdrawn and disappeared leaving 34 expecting to go down. In fact no teams at all have suffered this fate; all 34 sides remain where they were. Where vacancies occur the first sides to benefit are those that filled these lowly position and they have all been spared; having said this more sides have been promoted than might have been expected. I am firmly of the opinion that failure should result in relegation and if a team finishes in last position of an eight team all-play-all it should go down whatever the circumstances to be replaced by a more successful team from the division below. We have some shining examples this year - the worst being a team that P7 W0 D0 L7 and games W0 D0 L26 - and there are several others not much better - and all retained their places to suffer the same fate again this time.

Of course the rules cannot be changed for Season Three but they should be shook up for Season Four as I'm sure we will still be in the throes of lockdown then.
I hadn't read Neil's post until recently but, as team manager of two of the teams he presumably had in mind, I agree he makes a fair point. In fact, I had told the team members in question they were scheduled to be relegated - and, as this offered the prospect of more equal matches in the following season, this would have been a welcome outcome. However, as Neil observes, due to numerous teams withdrawing, the teams - and others in a similar position - unexpectedly found themselves still in the divisions from which they had confidently expected to be relegated. They were not offered any choice in the matter. I'm not sure that it's altogether fair to characterise such teams as "shining examples" as if they were somehow to blame.
Rules are rules and unfortunately they can't be changed; at least for this season. Firstly can I say that other teams and we might as well name some examples, Atticus and Shropshire 1, have managed to maintain their First Division status despite being relegated in both Seasons 1 & 2. Kings Head on the other hand failed to enter in Season Two and now find themselves on the bottom rung of the ladder and starting again in Division Seven rather than Division One where they would have been had they re-entered.

I apologise if you found the wording of my post less than acceptable. Surely the players from your teams would benefit more in a lower division where they would have the opportunity to face opponents closer to their strength whereas at the moment I see many games as total mismatches. Kings Head had an average rating of 2108 whereas the lowest rated team is in Division Five with an average rating of 711. When I see juniors, taught never to resign, playing on in an ending of 4Q & K versus lone K, I do feel there is something wrong. Can I emphasise that I attach no blame to anyone; the rules have been adhered to - but simply they need changing imho.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Alex McFarlane » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:21 pm

As I was indisposed I am not sure exactly from which divisions teams dropped out between seasons 2 and 3, and I'm too lazy to try to work it out now.

However, I do know that between seasons 1 and 2 teams were dropping out from all divisions. (I expect that might have stabalised a bit.)

I appreciate that there is a lot of logic in saying that a relegated team should be moved down but there has to be some consideration to the situation where to relegate that team you might have to promote almost all of the next division.

When you have a large number of withdrawals there is no easy solution to this problem.

Hard and fast rules tie your hands but flexible rules results in complaints that one team was favoured over another.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:29 pm

Neil Graham wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:43 pm
When I see juniors, taught never to resign, playing on in an ending of 4Q & K versus lone K
There's marginally more justification for playing on against four queens than against one as it can be easier for the player with excess material to blunder into a stalemate.

It is one of the more tiresome parts of on-line chess, having to face people who won't resign. Justifiable in Blitz if there's no increment, but an insult with increment if the non-resigner is much lower rated.

Neil Graham
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Neil Graham » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:03 am

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:21 pm
As I was indisposed I am not sure exactly from which divisions teams dropped out between seasons 2 and 3, and I'm too lazy to try to work it out now.

However, I do know that between seasons 1 and 2 teams were dropping out from all divisions. (I expect that might have stabalised a bit.)

I appreciate that there is a lot of logic in saying that a relegated team should be moved down but there has to be some consideration to the situation where to relegate that team you might have to promote almost all of the next division.

When you have a large number of withdrawals there is no easy solution to this problem.

Hard and fast rules tie your hands but flexible rules results in complaints that one team was favoured over another.
I have some statistics for Season 3.

Firstly if no teams had dropped out you would expect the makeup of Division One to be 24 remaining teams plus 8 promoted teams; the remaining divisions to be made up of 16 remaining teams plus 8 relegated teams from the Division above and 8 promoted teams from the Division below. I haven't worked out the number of withdrawals but that isn't on the spreadsheet I concocted. Some details are given below.

Here's the makeup for Season 3:-

Division One :-17 remaining teams; 8 promoted teams; 6 teams who should have been relegated; 1 extra promoted team (Total 32)
Division Two :-13 remaining teams; 8 promoted teams; 7 teams who should have been relegated; 4 extra promoted teams. (Total 32)
Division Three:- 10 remaining teams; 8 promoted teams; 6 teams who should have been relegated; 8 extra promoted teams (Total 32)
Division Four:- 7 remaining teams; 8 promoted teams; 8 teams who should have been relegated; 9 extra promoted teams (Total 32)
Division Five:- 3 remaining teams; 7 promoted teams; 8 teams who should have been relegated; 14 extra promoted teams (Total 32)
Division Six:- 32 remaining teams from Division Six (Total 32)
Division Seven New teams plus a few relocated/relegated from Division Six (Total 69)

The 4NCL produced a ranking table on 6th January still visible on the website. It bears little resemblance to what actually happened. In Division One Chess Plus, Gonzaga, Wood Green and West is Best failed to enter thus immediately saving all the relegated teams as there were two withdrawals there as well. The loss of nine out of thirty two teams immediately impacted Division Two and so on downwards. The other notable fact is that of the 40 promoted teams, 39 re-entered (one disappeared) and are in their new divisions along with several unanticipated arrivals.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:23 pm

Neil Graham wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:43 pm
I apologise if you found the wording of my post less than acceptable. Surely the players from your teams would benefit more in a lower division where they would have the opportunity to face opponents closer to their strength whereas at the moment I see many games as total mismatches. Kings Head had an average rating of 2108 whereas the lowest rated team is in Division Five with an average rating of 711. When I see juniors, taught never to resign, playing on in an ending of 4Q & K versus lone K, I do feel there is something wrong. Can I emphasise that I attach no blame to anyone; the rules have been adhered to - but simply they need changing imho.
Neil, I wouldn't characterise your post as "less than acceptable" - it just left itself open to the interpretation that the teams in question were somehow to blame which I entirely accept wasn't your intention. To have two team facing one another, with the average rating of one 1200 or so points higher than the other, obviously is far from ideal. The difficulty, as I think others have indicated, is that - while a fixed set of rules can't cover every contingency that might arise - a more 'flexible' approach would likely result in some teams feeling they have been treated less fairly than others. Maybe the rate of 'churn' will reduce in future, otherwise it's hard to see - without wishing to seem to under-estimate the resourcefulness of the 4NCL team - a totally satisfactory solution.

Nick Grey
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Re: 4NCL On-Line Season 3

Post by Nick Grey » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:59 pm

Is the 4NCL plan On-Line Season ends at Season 4? And otb starts in Autumn 2021?

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