4NCL online - some chess!!!

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Caoimhín de Búrca
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Re: 4NCL online - some chess!!!

Post by Caoimhín de Búrca » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:23 am

John McKenna wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:06 pm
If the ratings given in the results of the recent Finals are to be believed then the 1st season was already lopsided since the team that won Div. 4 had a higher average rating (2044) than the teams that were runners-up in Div. 3 (2021) & Div. 2 (2025).

In the 2nd season any new or rejoining team with an average rating of 2000+ could start in Div. 4 to avoid more lopsidedness than is necessary.
That was an interesting anomaly that only really became evident during the knock-outs. The team that won Div 4 had a 2200 on board 1, who only played once during the regular season. He had played on their Div 1 team throughout the season, but in the final round, he swapped places with their regular Div 4 board 1. The effect of this was that he was now eligible for the knock-outs, and so the side could put out an extra 2200. This was a regular enough occurrence I think - Kent Kestrels fielded a 2000-rated player in their Div 4 knock-outs even though he'd played all bar 1 of his games for their Div 2 team.

Several knock-out sides bore little resemblance to the sides that had come through the groups, so the first season in general wasn't as lopsided as it would appear from just looking at the final. So taking the Div 2 final, only one of those 8 players played their in club's opening league match. Half the players in the Div 3 final didn't play the first round, and 3/8 of the Div 4 finalists.

It should be noted of course that this wasn't against the rules - but by manipulating the 80-point rule, it is in theory possible to have two teams, for your second team to make the knock-outs, and for your first team to play that match. This doesn't seem right. I don't know what rules the regular 4NCL has on subbing, but in the Leinster leagues for example (because that's what I play in usually), each player is declared on a club's A/B/C/etc team and then can't ever sub down. If they sub up more than three times, they are deemed to have moved up a team and can't sub down any more.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL online - some chess!!!

Post by Nick Burrows » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:35 am

Caoimhín de Búrca wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:23 am
It should be noted of course that this wasn't against the rules - but by manipulating the 80-point rule, it is in theory possible to have two teams, for your second team to make the knock-outs, and for your first team to play that match. This doesn't seem right.
I agree. It simply gives big squads a large competitive advantage over smaller squads, they shuffle the pack to sweep up the silverware. Play-off teams should be representitive of the players who got them there and could easily be mandated by the rules e.g to play down a team in the same squad you must have played for them twice in the regular season.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: 4NCL online - some chess!!!

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:08 pm

The regular 4NCL's rules on subbing are simply the regular rules it has about team composition, together with a rule that you can't play twice in the same round, whether or not the round is stretched over more than one date.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL online - some chess!!!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:52 pm

Caoimhín de Búrca wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:23 am
Several knock-out sides bore little resemblance to the sides that had come through the groups, so the first season in general wasn't as lopsided as it would appear from just looking at the final.
Was there a good reason for the somewhat convoluted pairing schemes used as opposed to a team Swiss? You could have more than one Swiss with rating restrictions on lower sections. A Swiss would have coped rather better with teams walking out in protests against players being banned. As a pairing scheme, use the Olympiad method with a triangular match if there's an odd number.

Caoimhín de Búrca
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Re: 4NCL online - some chess!!!

Post by Caoimhín de Búrca » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:21 pm

You're asking the wrong person there!

It may be as simple as numbers exceeding expectations. I can't imagine it was considered that whole teams would have walked out.

I thought the format was fine (though I don't understand why match points are used over game points in all-play-all groups, but again that's just what I'm used to). Arguably it gave teams more to play for in the later stages than a 32-team Swiss would have.

Caoimhín de Búrca
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Re: 4NCL online - some chess!!!

Post by Caoimhín de Búrca » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:24 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:08 pm
The regular 4NCL's rules on subbing are simply the regular rules it has about team composition, together with a rule that you can't play twice in the same round, whether or not the round is stretched over more than one date.
So that's basically what we had here then - you just have to be declared with the club and not playing ahead of someone 80 points ahead of you?

Is there a play-off in 4NCL? Obviously that introduced the element of, say, a club's second team playing a round which the first team didn't qualify for, and with it the option of effectively subbing down.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: 4NCL online - some chess!!!

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:28 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:52 pm
Was there a good reason for the somewhat convoluted pairing schemes used as opposed to a team Swiss? You could have more than one Swiss with rating restrictions on lower sections. A Swiss would have coped rather better with teams walking out in protests against players being banned. As a pairing scheme, use the Olympiad method with a triangular match if there's an odd number.
Also, the pairing scheme used entailed, after the first 7 all-play-all rounds, teams playing counterpart teams from other groups. That created imbalances. Where, after 7 rounds, the first, second and [say] seventh seeds were in a three-way fight for the two quarter-final places, the seventh seed had the obvious advantage of weaker opponents in rounds 8, 9 and 10 and so qualifying at the expense of a higher-seeded rival.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL online - some chess!!!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:43 pm

Caoimhín de Búrca wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:21 pm
(though I don't understand why match points are used over game points in all-play-all groups, but again that's just what I'm used to).
English, Welsh and Scottish Leagues are usually run on a match point system. The internal Cambridge college league of fifty years ago ran on game points, but that's the only one that comes to mind.

Caoimhín de Búrca
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Re: 4NCL online - some chess!!!

Post by Caoimhín de Búrca » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:37 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:28 pm
Also, the pairing scheme used entailed, after the first 7 all-play-all rounds, teams playing counterpart teams from other groups. That created imbalances. Where, after 7 rounds, the first, second and [say] seventh seeds were in a three-way fight for the two quarter-final places, the seventh seed had the obvious advantage of weaker opponents in rounds 8, 9 and 10 and so qualifying at the expense of a higher-seeded rival.
True. I guess the seventh seed wasn't really supposed to be challenging for a play-off spot, but it would help under-rated teams such as juniors and foreign teams whose ratings are undervalued (eg Irish ratings)

I don't know about others, but I wasn't really taking the competition seriously enough to be too worried about that. It was an excuse for a couple more games, which was fine by us. I'm sure the feedback in the survey would have flagged it if it were a particular concern.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:43 pm
English, Welsh and Scottish Leagues are usually run on a match point system. The internal Cambridge college league of fifty years ago ran on game points, but that's the only one that comes to mind.
Yeah, and there's no reason to be changing habits for this of course. Just it always strikes me as strange as it seems clear to me that a 4-0 win and a 2½-1½ win aren't the same thing, so it doesn't make sense to score them the same. Each board is separate, so doesn't impact the other really; it's not like scoring a 4-0 win and a 2-1 win separately in football. I know the Olympiad used game points up to a few years ago, but it apparently wasn't ideal in a Swiss where there were lots of one-sided matches. But for a round-robin, it makes sense.

Anyways, that's just me being contrary. I think the point John McKenna raised on the strength of the knock-out teams is an interesting one, and it wouldn't have been caught by the surveys either, which were issued (and probably largely completed) towards the end of the group stage. So the feedback on that may be valid at this stage.

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