4NCL Online

[MartinCarpenter]

But then we still (I think, happy to be corrected) have no idea whether the lichess method will ban people on isolated good games, or takes performances over a range of games into account. Or what in fact it does do. Basing it on a small sample is obviously flawed

In the absence of direct information, I think there has to be quite a strong suspicion that it is triggering based on one or two games - it does seem to be triggering after each two game round of the event. Also I presume a lot of the 4NCL online people haven't played online before.

Which as you say would simply be absolutely the wrong thing to be doing. I almost don't care how accurate the statistics are - and I don't actually think they are on such a small sample of games - you're always going to be ten times more accurate if you wait a bit and gather more information.

[Neil Graham]

I can't think of a more inconvenient time to withdraw your teams than going into the final round of a competition. As I understand it one player is under suspicion - yet now all the Surbiton teams have been withdrawn. This impacts on both promotions and relegations particularly in Division One where there have been two withdrawals - teams in those groups have benefited as just one side will now face the drop whereas teams who have completed all their matches without dispute may be relegated. Similarly teams in Division Four have been handed an unexpected lifeline and a promotion place because of Surbiton 3's withdrawal. In Division Three where Surbiton 2 competed, a team with two points can avoid the drop whilst in other groups in the Division seven points may be insufficient.

[Roger de Coverly]

I can't think of a more inconvenient time to withdraw your teams than going into the final round of a competition.

Perhaps the management of the 4NCL will have to accept that bans for no stated reason are going to trigger such reactions.

[Richard Bates]

FWIW I get the impression that it’s not that difficult for a decent player to have high correlation of moves with the lichess algorithm on occasion, particularly in certain types of positions which are positional and relatively simple in nature. I am not surprised that a couple of the very recently banned players in Div1 have been playing chess of that nature. It’s not even as if it requires you to play the computers moves, just ones that aren’t worse than the computers best moves.

Exactly the same players have been unable to do this in the 4NCL, so why is there a difference in the online version?
(The superstars in the Isle of Man or Candidates were unable to do it either)

Do you mean fall foul of the Regan method, or fall foul of the lichess method? Can we assume that the publicly available “computer analysis” option on lichess is just a user toy, and that the real anti cheating software is a lot more sophisticated (whatever it is that requires it to be triggered...)

[Matthew Turner]

Richard,
I mean the Regan method, but it looks like Lichess (and chess.com) very strongly follow the Regan methodology.

[Matthew Turner]

But then we still (I think, happy to be corrected) have no idea whether the lichess method will ban people on isolated good games, or takes performances over a range of games into account. Or what in fact it does do. Basing it on a small sample is obviously flawed

In the absence of direct information, I think there has to be quite a strong suspicion that it is triggering based on one or two games - it does seem to be triggering after each two game round of the event. Also I presume a lot of the 4NCL online people haven't played online before.

Which as you say would simply be absolutely the wrong thing to be doing. I almost don't care how accurate the statistics are - and I don't actually think they are on such a small sample of games - you're always going to be ten times more accurate if you wait a bit and gather more information.

Martin,
Are you really saying that you think if a player is banned after round 9 the website is obviously basing the ban on the last game and just disregarding the first 8?

[MartinCarpenter]

I can't think of a more inconvenient time to withdraw your teams than going into the final round of a competition.

Perhaps the management of the 4NCL will have to accept that bans for no stated reason are going to trigger such reactions.

Yes, this is a horrible position for the team captains to be in as well.

You've got a team member - who you quite likely know fairly well personally - being accused of a fairly serious thing.

You can't obviously see why and no one will tell you the actual evidence. Unless they're actually admitting guilt, you're basically morally obliged to defend them quite strongly.

Since there doesn't seem to be much of an appeal process, then what? Withdrawal seems pretty logical.

[JustinHorton]

Roger,
You only get a ban if you play unnaturally well, better than anyone played in the whole of the OTB 4NCL. So the idea that a player could be banned because a parent accessed some analysis from the same IP address is total nonsense.

I think that’s just demonstrably false.

This is what the captain were told at their meeting with a Ken a Regan and does indeed seem to be borne out by the evidence I have seen.

Ok. So if we look at the games of any of the banned players, we should be able to see this, am I right?

[Paul Cooksey]

Perhaps the management of the 4NCL will have to accept that bans for no stated reason are going to trigger such reactions.

But also that failing to ban players strongly suspected of cheating will trigger a similar reaction.

If I was the management of the 4NCL - and I am as glad as everyone else that I am not - I would be praying just to get to the end of this season online, and that we could play OTB next year, probably with a late start.

[MartinCarpenter]

Martin,
Are you really saying that you think if a player is banned after round 9 the website is obviously basing the ban on the last game and just disregarding the first 8?

I'm saying that I really don't know I do know that someone got banned in a rather earlier round.

Also that it would be a really easy thing for them to say which/how many games it was based on.

[Roger de Coverly]

Are you really saying that you think if a player is banned after round 9 the website is obviously basing the ban on the last game and just disregarding the first 8?

In the absence of disclosure, how would anyone know? It's plausible enough that a player might play the first eight legitimately and fall foul of something on the ninth. You may recall the earlier squad withdrawal after only a handful of rounds because of an accusation.

[Matthew Turner]

I think that’s just demonstrably false.

This is what the captain were told at their meeting with a Ken a Regan and does indeed seem to be borne out by the evidence I have seen.

Ok. So if we look at the games of any of the banned players, we should be able to see this, am I right?

Yes and no. In some cases you will be able to see it, but not in others. All the games are available on the 4NCL website so you'd have to investigate for yourself.

[Adam Raoof]

Roger,
You only get a ban if you play unnaturally well, better than anyone played in the whole of the OTB 4NCL. So the idea that a player could be banned because a parent accessed some analysis from the same IP address is total nonsense.

I think that’s just demonstrably false.

Please demonstrate this.

[Roger de Coverly]

Ok. So if we look at the games of any of the banned players, we should be able to see this, am I right?

There was a disclosure of the name of one of the earlier banned players. Looking at one game, I thought he was busted, but he managed to save a difficult ending. But did this indicate external assistance, or just that he's a strong player?

[Matthew Turner]

Are you really saying that you think if a player is banned after round 9 the website is obviously basing the ban on the last game and just disregarding the first 8?

In the absence of disclosure, how would anyone know? It's plausible enough that a player might play the first eight legitimately and fall foul of something on the ninth. You may recall the earlier squad withdrawal after only a handful of rounds because of an accusation.

Roger,
I don't speak on behalf of the ECF or the 4NCL, but I note this in the ECF fair play policy

"Before any sanctions are applied a player’s games will be reviewed using Dr Ken Regan’s
anti-cheating software, and the results will be shared with the player on request. "